Author Topic: Six Pack issues and rebuilding  (Read 84360 times)

Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #165 on: April 09, 2014 - 10:17:10 pm »
Dont forget to cap the secondary fuel lines!
 :cheers:

Look carefully and you'll see they are capped, but had to tighten em down a couple times to make them leak free.

I get nervous about leaving the sight plugs off. What Ive been doing to check levels is running the electric pump, and then turning it off, and then removing the site plugs to check. If a little spills out, I figure that should be about right.
I guess a good place to start... each carb level set just barely leaking out.

btw, my squirter seems to work well. In fact it seems like a huge squirt out those little 31/1000 holes.

Will try starting it up tomorrow.
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....




Offline cuda346pk

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #166 on: April 10, 2014 - 12:59:06 am »
Tommy, isn't there an open vacuum hole under the choke vacuum diaphragm pod you removed? I cant tell for sure if you have it plugged or not. I left my vacuum pod in place and just removed the shaft, plate and linkage.
David - In Georgia

1972 'Cuda In-Violet 340 6 Pack 4 Speed 3.91 Sure Grip - Finally, after 27 years of waiting and dreaming it is real. Now the fun begins!

Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #167 on: April 10, 2014 - 06:56:53 pm »
I looked and it didnt appear to be an open port. There are two screw holes to mount the pod but I used the two screws in them.
Anyways, just tried starting it up and it ran, when I gave it half throttle, but didnt want to climb above about 2000 rpm, again like it was suffocating, but it did run smoother this time. Still wouldnt idle, and still blowing smoke, but running far better than the other day.
I was originally running 80 jets, and now using 66s. Much closer to stock, but still blowing smoke, and not running  :pullinghair: :pullinghair:
Maybe go back and try 80s??  :dunno:

Heres a description of my build from the prior owner:

Tom:
'74 440 block + .030 stock 3.75 stroke (446")
'66 516 casting closed chamber heads
Stock cast crank
Stock LY rods
Closed chamber heads
Basic machine work was done on lower end by someone else, we bought it used. But, it has TRW forged flat tops, Federal bearings, stock replacement rings, etc. A basic rebuild with heavy pistons. Heads have 2.08/1.74 stainless performance valves. I pocket ported and cleaned them up, and gasket matched them, ending up around 245cfm @.550 intake, 175cfm @ .550 exh. Spring seats and guides cut for springs. They were also milled to get a true final compression of 10.5:1. Intake is a factory '70 iron 6bbl that was also port matched and cleaned up as best as I could reach, no plenum mods. Carbs are factory '70 six pack 4sp vacuum carbs, jetted and tuned. Cam is Crane hydraulic H-302-2, 302, .504 lift, 232 @ .050 intake, 312, .528 lift, 242 @ .050 exh. It runs 1 7/8 Hooker headers and MSD 6AL with a Pro Billet dist.
Chassis dyno results: 378hp @ 5300     470tq @ 3500

It's got 83 of overlap and will have a rough idle and the plugs may get fouled if it's idled a lot or driven lightly all the time. Last I checked it was around there too (170-175 IIRC). The reason the cylinder pressure is what it is is because the intake valve closing event officially seals the cylinder as the piston is moving up the bore. The larger the cam, the later that intake valve closes, so the lower the effective cylinder pressure will be with the same given mechanical static ratio.
I have a couple hints: Run the highest octane you can get (unleaded 93/94) and don't keep snapping the throttle at idle or pumping too much while it's warming up. It's never going to idle perfectly or smell clean at idle but it's not bad and you could always set it a little faster idle speed to help that. You can also try going with a higher heat range plug too.""
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014 - 07:17:27 pm by tommyg29 »
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #168 on: April 10, 2014 - 07:29:03 pm »
I am sure you have verified that the timing advance is performing properly.

You said it was blowing smoke which I take to be rich, black smoke.  Don't see any reason to go to big jets until you can get it to run properly when standing still.  I would not think it was a big air leak-again because it is blowing black? smoke out the tail pipes.

Does it make any difference if you open the throttle very slowly as opposed to blipping it quickly?

When you open the throttle and it sprays an accelerator pump shot, does it stop as it should or does fuel continue to come out after the initial shot-looking into the carb while running, of course :)

I am never afraid to do dumb stuff when I am lost...so I would probably remove the center carb and bolt on one of the end carbs and see what it did when I cranked it up and "winged" the throttle.

I did not read the entire thread.  Were these new carbs, or ones you picked up?  I am wondering if there is a warp allowing excessive fuel to be sucked into the engine....
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014 - 07:36:21 pm by Strawdawg »

Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #169 on: April 10, 2014 - 07:54:48 pm »
I quit for the night. Too frustrated, but its blowing mostly whitish smoke...hard to tell, but I dont think I have a head gasket issue.
Think?? :dunno:
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014 - 07:59:00 pm by tommyg29 »
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #170 on: April 10, 2014 - 08:34:28 pm »
Definitely not rich...but white can be from coolant in the combustion chamber.....is your coolant level dropping?  Any signs of coolant when you pull the plugs?

Offline HP_Cuda

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #171 on: April 10, 2014 - 09:46:16 pm »
Any water/coolant in the oil?

It will look foamy.

1970 Cuda Clone 440 4 speed - sublime green
1970 Cuda 383 4 speed - yellow - SOLD

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #172 on: April 10, 2014 - 10:08:47 pm »
Like a bad milkshake. Not necessary to have water in the oil , though. Depends on where it blew. If it blows between cylinders it will run as you describe

Steve


Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #173 on: April 10, 2014 - 10:13:48 pm »
Coolant is still green but need to flush it soon anyway.
Its hard for me to tell what color the smoke was but it seemed light color. Definitely not black though. In fact I dont think its ever blown black, though maybe very light gray.
I really dont think its coolant, and I definitely dont want to think that  :bricks1:

Now, if it blew between cylinders I imagine this would mostly mean a loss of compression? That would make some sense. Yesterday I tried starting it and it turned over a few times and then locked. The battery was at 12.5 volts so I figured maybe dead battery again, so I charged it up overnight to 13.6 volts, and turned it over and it seemed to lock again. I pulled 3 or 4 "easy" plugs just in case this evening before trying again. Didnt observe anything much draining out of any plug holes, but one of the plugs was definitely wet with that I thought was gas. Anyway, then put the plugs back in and tried again and this time it cranked for a few moments and finally spit to life, and after a few more moments it started running somewhat smoothly, but didnt want to go more than about 2000 rpm, and after about 30 seconds I let off and tried to let it idle, but it wanted to quit, so I just let it.  :violin:

Guess I should try to check compression this weekend. Obviously I wont be checking on a warm engine, but I will install the gauge and crank it over a few moments each cylinder. Whats the easiest and safest ways to disconnect ignition and cutoff fuel for the check?

And question 2: is the accelerator pump supposed to be squirting immediately and each time the throttle is opened?
I never really observed its operation before but it sure squirts a larger stream than I would have thought.
I guess under normal operation with my mild pump cam, it doesnt squirt its maximum potential amount, and closes off quickly?


« Last Edit: April 10, 2014 - 10:33:58 pm by tommyg29 »
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #174 on: April 10, 2014 - 10:20:18 pm »
I would use 61 or 62 jets , black smoke is fuel , yes the squirter should have instant fuel shot inot he carb every time the throttle is moved , hydraulic locking the engine could cause a head gasket failure , a cooling system pressure test would quickly determine if there is a leak

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #175 on: April 10, 2014 - 10:36:53 pm »
I would use 61 or 62 jets , black smoke is fuel , yes the squirter should have instant fuel shot inot he carb every time the throttle is moved , hydraulic locking the engine could cause a head gasket failure , a cooling system pressure test would quickly determine if there is a leak

even between cylinders?
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #176 on: April 10, 2014 - 11:06:52 pm »
depends if it blew at a coolant hole...seeing that you are seeing what might be white smoke...then I would think it would show it...if the white smoke is from coolant in the exhaust...if blown badly around a coolant hole, then it might be pushing water out of the radiator at higher rpms....


Offline tman

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #177 on: April 10, 2014 - 11:31:31 pm »
Sounds like head gasket issue.  If its white, its steam, except for early morning cold. 

Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #178 on: April 11, 2014 - 07:27:11 am »
Dont know what else I can do with the carb, so I will check compression next and see how much further I go down the rabbit hole.
Coolant looks normal, but we'll see.
If its a head gasket, this thread will go on hiatus for a little.
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline cuda346pk

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #179 on: April 11, 2014 - 09:25:36 am »
Tommy, check the center of the 3 holes next to the vacuum pod mounting screws. It looks like it has a gold ball maybe pressed in sealing it but allowing the vacuum advance port to still breathe. I don't think it is your problem but I left my pod on cause I did not want to permanently alter the carb by driving in the lead ball supplied with the manual choke kit I tried to use. You are probably on the right track unfortunately, either try a coolant pressure tester or a leak down test on each cylinder with the radiator cap loose, just loose cause if it is a good leak it will blow coolant everywhere from the top of the radiator, guess how I know this  :banghead:
Bummer you are still having trouble but I know how you feel. Always something everytime I turn around too. Night before last while test driving from carb tuning I had a valve stem go to crap on me and lost pressure on a front tire quickly at about 80 mph. Chewed up the sidewall pretty good. Getting 2 new front tires today  :money:
My carbs are currently running 62 center (stock) and 82 outers. Was lean on just the center carb unless I got the power valve open. With the outers hooked back up going rich when they tip in and a slight bog/hesitation/flatness early on then things come alive :bigsmile:
I tried going one step stiffer in the vacuum diaphragm springs from long yellow to purple but no change noticed in the quick drive when the tire went flat. I will try it again later today and make sure. I am going to make up some 1/2" delrin spacers next week so I am holding off on any more jetting until I put those on and will probably try dropping to 80's . Good luck with it and I will hope for the best for ya.
David - In Georgia

1972 'Cuda In-Violet 340 6 Pack 4 Speed 3.91 Sure Grip - Finally, after 27 years of waiting and dreaming it is real. Now the fun begins!