Author Topic: Six Pack issues and rebuilding  (Read 82883 times)

Offline CudamanTom

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Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2014 - 08:45:06 pm »
Back in the sixties I wonder how guys kept these 6 pack setups running well?
Seems like a real challenge?
I had a 1970 340 6 pack cuda for 6 years. Minor adjustments at most to keep her in tune. Not bad really.  :2thumbs:
But sometimes situations like what Tommy is facing can be a bear. A big bear. :pullinghair:
1971 Cuda Vert 440-833 - (clone)
1971 Cuda 440-727 - (clone)


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Offline tommyg29

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Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2014 - 09:13:25 pm »
Anytime you have three times more of anything youre probably 3X more likely to have a problem or something break, so in that sense they may have more issues, but generally I think once you have them tuned, and dont mess with them, they should give years of good service.
And dont know about the sixties, but anything 40 years old will tend to have more problems too.  :bigsmile:
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
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Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

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Offline Plum6Pak

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Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2014 - 09:44:17 pm »
Sorry to hear, that's a sweet car! This won't help you solve the problem but if you haven't already, I'd get the oil changed and clear out any gas that may be in the cylinders and any other areas or you may end up with a more serious problem. Good luck!

Offline tommyg29

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Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2014 - 10:42:25 pm »
Sorry to hear, that's a sweet car! This won't help you solve the problem but if you haven't already, I'd get the oil changed and clear out any gas that may be in the cylinders and any other areas or you may end up with a more serious problem. Good luck!

Done that. Ran it around the block a few times too, and next time I get it running Ill change the oil again.
When I first changed it a few weeks ago about one gallon of gas was mixed with the oil.  :22yikes: :22yikes:
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline tommyg29

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Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
« Reply #124 on: April 03, 2014 - 10:15:30 pm »
Been almost a month and now Im back. Spent some time on vacation out of the country, home repairs, etc, and decided to pick up a used full set of the correct coded carbs for a 71 off ebay. Spent the past few evenings pulling my existing carbs apart, AGAIN!, and removing the rebuild gaskets and parts to transfer them to the used set I picked up. I can do it now pretty easily without looking at diagrams or instructions, but.... its still time consuming... cleaning all the orifices, carefully scraping off and cleaning mating surfaces, etc. The tricky part is using the right gaskets. All I can do is use gaskets that are identical to the ones I remove, but that assumes of course the right ones were installed in the first place. Big assumption.
I am also scavenging a couple small parts off my original set to put them on the purchased set. A couple parts were missing, or didnt appear in as good a condition, but overall the new set appears in better condition.

Having a couple issues though. For instance the hot idle compensator cover didnt seem to fit tightly so I filed it down a little to make a tight fit. None of the exploded diagrams ANYWHERE show this rear part!  : Why?!
There was a FANTASTIC article about 6 pack rebuilding with great pictures I was using last month but the site has disappeared since? :clueless: The site was: Winged Warriors/National B body Owners Association.
swear: :swear:
Another issue... proper gaskets for the discharge nozzle screw... I think i got it right.

Here is a list of List/model numbers

« Last Edit: April 08, 2014 - 10:13:37 pm by tommyg29 »
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
« Reply #125 on: April 03, 2014 - 10:48:40 pm »
Not sure how to help from here  :dunno:

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline tommyg29

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Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
« Reply #126 on: April 04, 2014 - 11:46:19 am »
Here are a few questions and pictures.
First, were the clutch head type screws used in 71?
See them on some accelerator pump covers and a few other places.

1st picture shows the accelerator pump covers. My old one on the left and I am sure it had the wrong spring. Probably a float spring. I am going with the one on the right.

2nd picture shows a bent choke cam stud. Actually, the stud was replaced by a bolt, and I have just straightened it out. I am keeping my choke disconnected anyway, locking the flap in wide open position.
3rd picture is my "new" inboard, showing the vent baffle which I didnt have before.
4th picture shows my old accelerator arm (broken off) and I didnt even know. I am transferring over the linkage and connector only to the new inboard. Was does the accelerator arm even do?

Hopefully I can make one good, well performing set when I am done, and will probably put all the remaining parts on ebay. I am sure many of the parts can still be used.
And David, I can send you back your float bowl if you like.
It just got to the point I didnt feel safe with the old set.







« Last Edit: April 08, 2014 - 10:24:09 pm by tommyg29 »
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline brads70

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Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
« Reply #127 on: April 04, 2014 - 01:52:00 pm »
Here are a few questions and pictures.

Picture 71a shows the accelerator pump covers. My old one on the left and I am sure it had the wrong spring. Probably a float spring. I am going with the one on the right.



That spring (on the left) is for a vacuum secondary pot. Wrong spring
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #128 on: April 04, 2014 - 05:03:12 pm »
Im guessing that stronger accelerator pump spring and the broken accelerator arm didnt help me any with my old setup.  :bigsmile:
Now Im on to the cam, Im going to go with the one on the right, after I clean it up a bit.
Hard to tell what color it is but I think its a decent fit for a very mild build like mine.
What do the more aggressive cams do anyways?

and... lube or grease any parts in particular, shaft journals, springs, hinges?

« Last Edit: April 08, 2014 - 10:29:02 pm by tommyg29 »
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline MEK-Dangerfield

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #129 on: April 04, 2014 - 05:56:37 pm »

What do the more aggressive cams do anyways?


Chalk this one up into the art of tuning a Holley. I had to go with a more aggressive cam(blue) on my primaries to get it to put the accelerator pump shot in sooner because I had a bog.

Mike

1970 Challenger - SOLD
2016 SXT+.  1 of 524 SXT+'s in Plumb-crazy for 2016.

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #130 on: April 04, 2014 - 08:14:08 pm »
Where to start
 The arm that is broken off is for the idle solinoid , it hold up the idle speed until the key is shut off to allow the throttle to drop full closed so it will not run on .
 The Vent on the bowl is 71
 the Clutch screws I am not sure about but there is a special driver to turn them .
 Brad is right on the spring , it is a vacuum spring , the one on the right is correct .
 The pump cam does 2 things [try this on an Eddy carb] , it controls how much fuel is pumped both / degree of movement & total volume , so all cams have 2 holes to position the cam differently , as the throttle is opened it may move a lot or very little instantly some engines need more immediate shot , some less depending on vacuum to draw in fuel from the venturi , position 1& 2 are different in immediate movement on every cam , also when you floor it you get a total volume of fuel so each cam will have a different total amount also . & cams , 2 positions each , 1 has 3 so 15 total possible cam choices ! The shooter is the second part of the equation , small adds fuel slower over a longer time , the larger ones are opposite , basically you want to go as close to the minimum  fuel delivery without a bog or losing response .

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Online cudabob496

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Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
« Reply #131 on: April 04, 2014 - 11:15:47 pm »
Been almost a month and now Im back. Spent some time on vacation out of the country, home repairs, etc, and decided to pick up a used full set of the correct coded carbs for a 71 off ebay. Spent the past few evenings pulling my existing carbs apart, AGAIN!, and removing the rebuild gaskets and parts to transfer them to the used set I picked up. I can do it now pretty easily without looking at diagrams or instructions, but.... its still time consuming... cleaning all the orifices, carefully scraping off and cleaning mating surfaces, etc. The tricky part is using the right gaskets. All I can do is use gaskets that are identical to the ones I remove, but that assumes of course the right ones were installed in the first place. Big assumption.
I am also scavenging a couple small parts off my original set to put them on the purchased set. A couple parts were missing, or didnt appear in as good a condition, but overall the new set appears in better condition.

Having a couple issues though. For instance the hot idle compensator cover didnt seem to fit tightly so I filed it down a little to make a tight fit. None of the exploded diagrams ANYWHERE show this rear part!  : Why?!
There was a FANTASTIC article about 6 pack rebuilding with great pictures I was using last month but the site has disappeared since? :clueless: The site was: Winged Warriors/National B body Owners Association.
swear: :swear:
Another issue... proper gaskets for the discharge nozzle screw... I think i got it right.

Will post some more pictures soon.

I got a 72 service manual that has a whole section on maintaining/rebuilding/trouble shooting six packs, if you
have any specific questions.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

Offline mopar jack

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #132 on: April 05, 2014 - 12:25:34 pm »
The cam on the left looks like the green cam #290 in a Moroso kit. The right cam was pink #330. I used the green cam in a 3310 holley (780cfm) for years on a mild 440 wtih the 50cc accelerator pump. Worked great. Moroso has a list of specs for each cam.

Offline HP_Cuda

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #133 on: April 05, 2014 - 12:27:11 pm »
To add to what Cryco said: think of it like the beginning of a good song.

First you have the accelerator pump shot which is determined by size of the reservoir (yes you can get a 50cc accelerator pump kit - yellow and brown cam - not saying get one) and the cam which determines the intensity and timing of the pumpshot, finishing off with the discharge nozzle size. Then you are off to main metering and hopefully off to secondary land.

What I'm getting at is that one portion can be setup correctly but then you could have a bog because another is setup incorrectly. They all need to flow together to have a sweet sounding Holley song.
1970 Cuda Clone 440 4 speed - sublime green
1970 Cuda 383 4 speed - yellow - SOLD

Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #134 on: April 05, 2014 - 12:55:11 pm »
Hmmmm, at the risk of displaying my ignorance, does that mean the light green is mild and the pink for a more radical build?

Thanks for all the good advice. I installed everything on the car this morning, fixed a small leak, then turned it over, and only one crank...dead battery. Will try again this afternoon.
I guess for guys that do this for a living, or many times over the years you can tune in your sleep, but seems to me there are so many adjustments, even with the advice, I may be shooting in the dark.
Until I hear someone say ouch. Then maybe Ill know Im close.... unless he moves  :bigsmile:

Regardless, Im sure all your help will get me close. Still confused about the cam though. If I can get it running (on the primary only) Ill let you know how it goes later.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014 - 01:02:15 pm by tommyg29 »
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....