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Author Topic: Built New Hemi or Built 440?  (Read 7187 times)

Offline TKat13

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Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« on: February 27, 2012 - 06:41:50 PM »
I am at the point where I am finally needing to consider my engine combo more seriously as parts purchasing of suspension components etc are dependent upon the weight between the front wheels. :)

To give an idea of my seat knowledge, I have two daily drivers, '04 Mach 1, bolt-ons, tuned; and a '05 SRT-10 Ram (stock). 

Intended use of Cuda: Driving anywhere I want, auto-cross, drag racing, some track days... Building it to enjoy it everywhere! (MPG is not a huge concern but more is always better)

Stroked 5.7 vs. Stroked 440. The real question here is about drive-ability.

Power/Torque:
I know the torque comes in fast with the 440, how quickly and how long does the 5.7 builds come in?
In other words, given the same peak power numbers, knowing it is more about the curves than peak numbers, which motor is better?

So for those that have driven a stroked 440 (500) to a newer Hemi; what is the real seat of the pants difference in performance.

Handling:
What is the real handling difference between the two and can you make the 440 version handle as well as the lighter 5.7? (understanding of course spring rate would be different) At the end of the day, can you over-come the disadvantage of the front weight with properly selecting suspension components?

Thoughts and ideas are welcome.
 
1974 'Cuda
2005 SRT-10 Ram
2006 Buell Firebolt XB12R (Murdered by person texting & driving)
2004 Mach 1

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Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« on: February 27, 2012 - 06:41:50 PM »



Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2012 - 10:23:50 PM »
the new Hemi is a small block & pulls like one , it doesn't pull without RPM , it is not a torque monster , a stroked 440 would kill it , the 440/512  will plant you in the seat at any RPM , big difference .
 A 440 with alum heads ,intake & headers will remove a lot of weight from the front end , probably no more than a small block with factory AC .

Offline bad440

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2012 - 11:34:32 PM »
The downfall of the old Mopar big blocks(wedge engines) vs say big block Chevy, was the heads. They just didn't have the airflow of The Boss 429, rectangle port 454 Chevy. The 906 heads are arguably the best flowing factory heads(disregarding the Max wedges) and they flowed in stock form less than 250 cfm. For an example the 5.7 Mopar Eagle head flows 300 cfm out of the box(the 392 Gen 3 Hemi 350 CFM), this is the main reason for their big power.The 440 sixpak engine had a rating of 330 Net Horsepower back in the day, still much less than the Gen 3 Hemi`s. As for torque produced the 440 has plenty of that due to cubic inches, but ran out of breath much above 5500 RPM.
  Making big power on a 440 today without stroking( or supercharging), a head change as well as a roller cam is required. The new Edelbrock Performer heads are a good choice and flow 290 CFM out of the box, probably good for 40 or 50 horses without doing anything else.
 So the moral of the story is when all else is equal,( cubic inches and breathing) that 512 or 440 will stand up to these modern engines.
Sudbury, Ontario, Canada

Offline TKat13

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2012 - 11:54:30 PM »
A 440 with alum heads ,intake & headers will remove a lot of weight from the front end , probably no more than a small block with factory AC .

That is a great point! I need to research the weight differences when using aluminum heads and intake as well as going with Long Tubes.
Looks like another spreadsheet research project.

Although I 'assumed' I would go the aluminum route, I did not consider the wieght advantages, I was thinking of pure air flow.  I am sure it will still be heavier but by how much. :)

Any pointers to this weight information would be great.

Now that you mentioned A/C, living in Texas AC is an absolute must! Of course I will go with a new A/C style and not the huge old factory units.

I guess those 452 and 906 heads I have will continue to be wheel blocks. lol
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2006 Buell Firebolt XB12R (Murdered by person texting & driving)
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Offline msbaugh

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2012 - 12:16:35 AM »
The downfall of the old Mopar big blocks(wedge engines) vs say big block Chevy, was the heads. They just didn't have the airflow of The Boss 429, rectangle port 454 Chevy. The 906 heads are arguably the best flowing factory heads(disregarding the Max wedges) and they flowed in stock form less than 250 cfm. For an example the 5.7 Mopar Eagle head flows 300 cfm out of the box(the 392 Gen 3 Hemi 350 CFM), this is the main reason for their big power.The 440 sixpak engine had a rating of 330 Net Horsepower back in the day, still much less than the Gen 3 Hemi`s. As for torque produced the 440 has plenty of that due to cubic inches, but ran out of breath much above 5500 RPM.
  Making big power on a 440 today without stroking( or supercharging), a head change as well as a roller cam is required. The new Edelbrock Performer heads are a good choice and flow 290 CFM out of the box, probably good for 40 or 50 horses without doing anything else.
 So the moral of the story is when all else is equal,( cubic inches and breathing) that 512 or 440 will stand up to these modern engines.

I don't know how many of you subscribe to mopar magazine, but they had an interesting article about tested flow numbers on stock 440 heads including the stealth and the performer rpm... I found it very informative, mainly because I didn't know about it all before.  I like the start of this thread, I can personally say a little bit of a different perspective... as I have done heavy and light performance mods for two different 5.7 engines.  Simple bolt ons like headers, an exhaust, a throttle body and a good tune on a 5.7 hemi will turn it into a very responsive motor and makes it very fun on the street.  Compared to a light 440 build I believe it would beat it as far as drivability and fun... put some money in the 440 and it will win all day of course.  But I'll also say this also, I've driven a 5.7 with a kenne bell twin screw supercharger and it knocked my socks off!!! 

Offline TKat13

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2012 - 12:18:05 AM »
Just to keep the numbers here as I find them.
5.7 Hemi - Weight (includes induction, wiring harness, auto-trans flexplate and exhaust manifolds, but not accessories) = 485 lbs

440 Complete Engine - 670lbs, Stock, all cast iron.

I need to see how much of that 185lbs the alum. will save me.

back to researching...
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012 - 12:44:26 AM by TKat13 »
1974 'Cuda
2005 SRT-10 Ram
2006 Buell Firebolt XB12R (Murdered by person texting & driving)
2004 Mach 1

Offline TKat13

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2012 - 12:23:54 AM »
I've driven a 5.7 with a kenne bell twin screw supercharger and it knocked my socks off!!!

Great... Another valid option. Where's the wall, I need to bang my head now. :)
Anyway, this is exactly why I started this thread, needed help thinking this through this mess. I have a non-numbers matching car, let the modding begin. lol
( I will add that option to the weight list )
1974 'Cuda
2005 SRT-10 Ram
2006 Buell Firebolt XB12R (Murdered by person texting & driving)
2004 Mach 1

Offline The Cuda Guy

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2012 - 02:26:02 AM »
As far as alum heads the CNC ported and machine shop cleaned up 440 source or Eddy alum heads will flow roughly 315-325cfm @600 depending on whos flowbench and who did the work ect.  Easily make 550+ hp with a 440/512 stroker and those heads.  All depends on the rest of the combo.  Good luck either way.  I say keep it old school.

Don 
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012 - 02:27:38 AM by The Cuda Guy »
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Offline brads70

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2012 - 08:56:06 AM »
I'm a bit of a weight freak, especially on the front end. I have an aluminum rad, water pump, intake, (heads-soon, this winter),headers. I didn't weight all the stuff as I replaced it. ( I have a 440/727 )
I'm really happy with how my car handles but it wasen't just the lighter parts that make a car handle.( see my handling link below)
I'm building a 451" now . I'm sure I'll easily hit 300 cfm on the heads ( Mopar stage 6) I'll have about 8 K into the engine total. I don't know but I'd guess the new engine will have more puch that a stock 6.1 Hemi?
I'd bet you would have to spend twice what I did to get the same power from the new Hemi?
I'm with Don,I say keep it old school too!
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2012 - 09:28:02 AM »
JUst for arguements sake My results with the Eddys heads were very disappointing .
 I ported a set of Iron heads for a friend , I cannot remember if they were 452 or 906 but they were open chamber , we dynoed the car at 305 RWHP on a Mustang dyno [I believe I still have the sheets ]
anyway we installed the eddys mildly ported & cleaned up  , had numerous issues with the valves hitting the pistons so we had to fly cut the piston as the valves were not quite in the same location , we had to remake the headers to clear the spark plugs [angled] & returned to the same dyno to make a whopping 308 rwhp . 3 Hp for close to 3k spent .
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012 - 03:32:03 PM by Chryco Psycho »

Offline bad440

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2012 - 10:20:42 AM »
Most 5.7 Eagle engines make 335+ horses at the wheels, so you see what I am saying, even ported heads on these engines don`t guarantee big power unless it is done correctly. 300 hundred horses at the wheels is OK as a stock 440 only makes about 265. I`m an old school guy but have first hand experience on the new engines, they really are  powerful. Simply said were talking 40 years of engine technology. One other point, last summer went for a trip to southern ontario, got 31 mpg, couldn`t believe it, try that with a 440. Don`t get me wrong though I am a 440 fan also, have one in my Challenger, but I am lucky to get 12 mpg.
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Offline HP2

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2012 - 10:34:05 AM »
Handling:
What is the real handling difference between the two and can you make the 440 version handle as well as the lighter 5.7? (understanding of course spring rate would be different) At the end of the day, can you over-come the disadvantage of the front weight with properly selecting suspension components?


At the end of the day, yes, you can usually overcome the disadvantage of too much front end weight. The extra weight requires a different set up with higher rates as you know, but in casual driving can still be decent. In a racing environment, the extra weight also translate to faster wearing tires and brakes, so expect expenses to go up the more you track the car. The biggest limiting factor is if you retain the torsion bar suspension, there are not enough rate selections for you to set up the big block to outperform the lighter 3G Hemi. The biggest torsion bar readily available is a 1.12, which is barely adequate for a small block in autocross competition, so the big block will be at a disadvantage. If you change over to a coil over set up with a broad range of spring choices, then you can overcome this deficite.

Offline ragtopchally

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2012 - 11:17:14 AM »
What's your budget?  I think a stroked 440 will come in the same or cheaper than a stroked 5.7.  And why bother with a 5.7?  A 6.1 has better heads, forged crank.  Much better foundation to work with.

If you're NOT going to run EFI, than then 440 will make the most HP/$.   You can build a 500ci engine with some Stealth Heads and an RPM intake for probably less than $7k.  That's probably WITH a roller cam too.  Should be good for at least 550hp.

Getting 550HP from either a 5.7 or 6.1 will cost you more I think.  And if you want to keep the EFI, the computer and wiring harness for it will be at least $2k.
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Offline Cooter

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2012 - 01:09:43 PM »
Big Heads On the street SUCK...There's a reason the Rec. port BBC (396/454)didn't run all that well and an oval port would walk around it properly done in the 1/8th mile. Torque is king on the street.

Boss 302, 351 C., Boss 429, 426 Hemi, etc. all had WAY too much head for WAY too little bottom ends. Sure, back in the day they were the best of the best, but required high RPM to do ti.
Newer Hemi to make the same power as the stroker 440 (Even stroked newer Hemi), No comparison. stroker 440 WAY cheaper.

Rod to piston ratio in stroker 500 440? Like around 1.65 or so....Newer Hemi has SBC bores (4") and a 6" crank to achieve big cubes and power. I'd hate to see the rod to piston ratio of an engine like this.

If  your pocket book can afford the new Hemi, then the "WOW" factor will out weigh the stroker 440.
If your money challenged like most of us here, then the stroker 440 may be for you.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012 - 01:13:55 PM by Cooter »
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Offline bad440

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2012 - 02:11:06 PM »
Well here`s another curve ball, what about a Gen 3 426 or 440 Hemi, they put out 600 plus horsepower(natually aspirated) and It`s a small block; the physicaL size of the engine has no bearing on the horsepower it produces. Even a stroked 440(eg. 505, 512 etc.) has a difficult time achieving those kind of numbers.
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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2012 - 02:11:06 PM »