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Author Topic: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads  (Read 27458 times)

Offline 73_rally

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440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« on: December 19, 2008 - 06:52:09 PM »
I'm looking a buying a set of heads for a 383, for my 70 super bee, not looking for a big HP engine just a good street motor, is there a recomendation bewteen the two heads  :feedback: :feedback: :feedback:

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440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« on: December 19, 2008 - 06:52:09 PM »



Offline 73_rally

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Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2008 - 06:52:45 PM »
the stealth heads from 440 source

Offline hemiken

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Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2008 - 06:55:33 PM »
i would go the 440source heads over the Edelbrocks anyday. :2thumbs:
1970 Barracuda   (O^--^===|===^--^O)
1971 Barracuda   (O O {]{]{]|[}[}[} O O)
1970 Challenger  (O O [======R/T=] O O)
1971 Challenger  (O O ===== ===== O O)
I pay homage to the best Mopars ever built.

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Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2008 - 07:37:37 PM »
i would go the 440source heads over the Edelbrocks anyday. :2thumbs:

yea right...... with all the issues with stealth heads and considering its a copy of edelbrocks   :grinno:

get on moparts and ask the same question.....  :rofl:
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008 - 07:40:30 PM by StRoKer »

nivvy

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Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2008 - 07:39:06 PM »
I'm looking a buying a set of heads for a 383, for my 70 super bee, not looking for a big HP engine just a good street motor, is there a recomendation bewteen the two heads  :feedback: :feedback: :feedback:

if thats the case you can get reworked ported / bigger valve irons cheap on ebay  :2cents:

Offline ntstlgl1970

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Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2008 - 07:58:55 PM »
At this point, I'm glad we have choices. At least the question isn't Stage IV vs. 915's any more. Hopefully this won't degenerate into a bashfest like moparts. :chatting: :blah: :poopoke: :villagers: :nono: :swear: :bricks1: :banghead: :pullinghair: :hyper:
70 Cuda, 440, 440XT, A618 A/T, Spec-Rite 3k 10" lockup converter, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, GPIO megashift trans controller, EDIS8 waste spark ignition, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

nivvy

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Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2008 - 08:18:03 PM »
now it seems to be pro comps vs 440source  :lol2:

Offline moparmaniac59

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Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2008 - 09:17:10 PM »
Haven't owned pro-comps, but have not heard anything good about their stuff. As far as their electronic knock-off of the MSD box, well do a Google. It's like a soap opera story. It almost sounds like they are working out of a rented storage unit with hired non-english speaking office help shipping crap out of China!! I read some feedback from several souces that read like this about pro-comp, but I've not personally purchased anything from them, but if you are looking, just be careful and do your homework!! :2thumbs:


                                                           Matt B.
Matt

Offline ragtopchally

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Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2008 - 11:53:42 PM »
What's wrong w/440 Source?  I heard the early sets had some issues w/the locks which in rare circumstances, would drop a valve.

Before bashing a product, please submit some evidence or at least a link w/such info.
'70 318-auto Chally 'vert
'71 383-auto 'Cuda 'vert (sold)
06 300c SRT8
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Offline 74 340 4speed

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Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2008 - 12:14:50 AM »
i would stay away from the pro comp stuff.  i've seen the poor quality heads they make for chevrolet small blocks, so I doubt the 440 heads are any better.
Andy
1967 Camaro SS: 406 sbc 505 hp/506 ft lbs|4 speed|Posi|3.73s
1969 C/10  350|Turbo 350
1969 Dodge D300 318|4 speed|Dana|4.88s
1972Nova: 350|Turbo 350
1974 'Cuda: 340|4 speed|Dana 60|4.10s|posi
1999 Camaro SS: Auto|Longtube Headers|True Duals|TT2s
2013 Challenger R/T: 6 speed|Hurst with pistol grip|mopar performance exhaust|super track pak

Offline hemiken

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Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2008 - 01:43:03 AM »
yea right...... with all the issues with stealth heads and considering its a copy of edelbrocks   :grinno:

get on moparts and ask the same question.....  :rofl:
If you had half a clue what you were talking about, i may of given this some thought.  In what way does a 440source head look or perform like an Mopar Edelbrock head, other than the intake bolts up the same and the standard valve covers can be bolted on each in the same manner.

I would love to know how many sets of heads you have done any port work on and if you infact have even ran your fingers around a 440 source intake runner to feel what shape they are.

I have seen the crap that goes on in Moparts.  It is all a load of crap over there.  All i see is "if it aint American made, i would not buy it" time to wake up people. If you want products at realistic prices and of quality, you have to do the hard yards and make it happen, and if contracting overseas work helps and makes a product cheaper, then so be it.

If i remember rightly, 73_ralley asked the question here, i replied with real world knowledge and not something someone else had writting.  So unless you know what you are talking about, put up or shut up..........
1970 Barracuda   (O^--^===|===^--^O)
1971 Barracuda   (O O {]{]{]|[}[}[} O O)
1970 Challenger  (O O [======R/T=] O O)
1971 Challenger  (O O ===== ===== O O)
I pay homage to the best Mopars ever built.

nivvy

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Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2008 - 07:19:08 AM »
If you had half a clue what you were talking about, i may of given this some thought.  In what way does a 440source head look or perform like an Mopar Edelbrock head, other than the intake bolts up the same and the standard valve covers can be bolted on each in the same manner.

quote from another RACER on moaprts "Just got done doing some very mild port work on these 440 Source heads. Nothing new to anyone on here probably, they are alot like the Edelbrocks ofcourse."

I would love to know how many sets of heads you have done any port work on and if you infact have even ran your fingers around a 440 source intake runner to feel what shape they are.

I have seen the crap that goes on in Moparts.  It is all a load of crap over there.  All i see is "if it aint American made, i would not buy it" time to wake up people. If you want products at realistic prices and of quality, you have to do the hard yards and make it happen, and if contracting overseas work helps and makes a product cheaper, then so be it.

If i remember rightly, 73_ralley asked the question here, i replied with real world knowledge and not something someone else had writting.  So unless you know what you are talking about, put up or shut up..........

sorry you all upset ken but here is the info requested :2thumbs:

Please read all from Proven Racers and Profession head experts who specialize in that and been doing it there whole life  :2thumbs:




Problems with 440source chinese made heads:

1 --  Quality overall
2  -- firering issues
3  -- RACERS have found a felpro marine gasket doesnt overhang into the cylinder so you are limited on gasket choices! Which affect compression ratio
4 You have to pay more then the advertised price for machining costs to correct all the issues
5 valvetrain issues
6 7* locks not holding properly and dropping a valve
7 pushrod clearance

RACER quotes All can be validated on moparts.com under the search function !

"Price: $899/set fully assembled and ready to bolt on!" 

Quote from Brandon at 440source:
Frankly, I'm really (truly) disgusted at what this web site has turned into. Maybe it's because the economy is slowing down and these people have way too much time on their hands, I don't know, and at this point, I really don't care.

Brandon's not going to post anymore? 

You can tell by his reply just how much customer support one can expect. Plain and simple..... if you are going to sell cheap sub-standard parts, be ready to take the heat.
All the crap about "all a/m parts need work" is just that.



 I have noticed that the spark plug holes are 90 degrees to the wrist pin but angle in towards the deck, not parrellel to the deck  That may cause a problem on header

I can tell ya on the spark plug location, that I had a set of the Chinese sb Chevy heads and they had the spark plug angle so jacked around that we couldn't get ANY header to fit, we ultimately sent them back and went with Edelbrocks.

They were just wrapped in rice paper w/o a name, so I would suspect thats what they were..  They are such a POS that they won't even put a name on them. 

Mine are sitting behind me.Will be a while till I put them on.I still need to ask Brandon what plugs they recommend and what to torque the heads to.I figure they take the same bolts as Eddys and use the same FelPro gaskets also.They should have some instructions with them when they are shipped.Rocky
The instructions are in there, your supposed to read the tea leaves that are in the box wraped inside the rice paper... 



« Last Edit: December 20, 2008 - 08:48:35 AM by StRoKer »

nivvy

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Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2008 - 07:19:40 AM »
Quote from: hemiken on Today at 01:43:03 AM
If you had half a clue what you were talking about, i may of given this some thought.  In what way does a 440source head look or perform like an Mopar Edelbrock head, other than the intake bolts up the same and the standard valve covers can be bolted on each in the same manner.

quote from another RACER on moaprts "Just got done doing some very mild port work on these 440 Source heads. Nothing new to anyone on here probably, they are alot like the Edelbrocks ofcourse."

I would love to know how many sets of heads you have done any port work on and if you infact have even ran your fingers around a 440 source intake runner to feel what shape they are.

I have seen the crap that goes on in Moparts.  It is all a load of crap over there.  All i see is "if it aint American made, i would not buy it" time to wake up people. If you want products at realistic prices and of quality, you have to do the hard yards and make it happen, and if contracting overseas work helps and makes a product cheaper, then so be it.

If i remember rightly, 73_ralley asked the question here, i replied with real world knowledge and not something someone else had writting.  So unless you know what you are talking about, put up or shut up..........

 :2thumbs:


I know from expereince  That is the only reason I mention the spark plug angle on this psot, I should have known that Brandon  would have address that issue before selling them 
 Check out the difference in the intake flange.
I just want to hear real FLOW NUMBERS, and runner cc's, NOT hype! I have a hard time understanding all the hysteria from a product that has NO real specs available. I mean how do you market a cylinder head w/o having flow specs, what bothers me is WHY with a head that Brandon says he has put so much into does he not even have the flow numbers available, thats really all that should matter.. I know my opinion is probably not worth much since I have only been building engines my WHOLE adult life, had a flow bench for a dozen years, but what the hell.. 

I guess when your appealing to the "budget" minded consumer, those things don't really matter.. 
I have nothing against Brandons stuff....as I'm anxious to see the results guys have with his new aftermarket blocks when they come out. But I won't sign up to buy one until other people check them out first...lol.
      Stealth/Eddys flow numbers box stock
100 --- 65/79 --- 57/70
200 --- 135/143 --- 108/126
300 --- 191/207 --- 140/160
400 --- 227/256 --- 159/188
500 --- 242/278 --- 173/206
600 --- 254/291 --- 183/217
700 --- 261/292 --- 191/223
That was my point.Is there that much of an improvement to make the change?i could see it being a great replacement head.As for an upgrade to a performance head it looks like the e brock is a better choise.
I don't care who's head that is, that is not good at all!! When we install big valves and un-shroud the chambers we scribe it w/ a gasket, (as all competent engine builders do) and make sure we don't cross into the fire ring of the gasket, if you do that, ALL the integrity of the gasket is gone.. 

When the gasket is torqued its gonna push into the cylinder a little more and exacerbate that problem further. I don't have an easy fix for that one.. 
Fast thanks for the great info. So what would be the fix for something like that??? weld the chamber up wear the gasket over hangs and then recut the chamber? thanks Mopar65
Well, not here to bash anyone, but the ONLY effective repair on that casting using one of the gaskets that have been tried by Dwayne would be a little bead of weld in those areas then a bit of cleanup and resurface..

I believe any competent head guy with a tig welder should be able to handle that, we could do it w/o too much effort, although its a shame to have to do that to a brand new head..
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008 - 08:44:23 AM by StRoKer »

nivvy

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Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2008 - 08:44:55 AM »
Quote from: hemiken on Today at 01:43:03 AM
If you had half a clue what you were talking about, i may of given this some thought.  In what way does a 440source head look or perform like an Mopar Edelbrock head, other than the intake bolts up the same and the standard valve covers can be bolted on each in the same manner.

quote from another RACER on moaprts "Just got done doing some very mild port work on these 440 Source heads. Nothing new to anyone on here probably, they are alot like the Edelbrocks ofcourse."

I would love to know how many sets of heads you have done any port work on and if you infact have even ran your fingers around a 440 source intake runner to feel what shape they are.

I have seen the crap that goes on in Moparts.  It is all a load of crap over there.  All i see is "if it aint American made, i would not buy it" time to wake up people. If you want products at realistic prices and of quality, you have to do the hard yards and make it happen, and if contracting overseas work helps and makes a product cheaper, then so be it.

If i remember rightly, 73_ralley asked the question here, i replied with real world knowledge and not something someone else had writting.  So unless you know what you are talking about, put up or shut up.......... 



:2thumbs:

 OK Dwayne......are you going to spit it out???  .......What are your thoughts on the Stealths??? Are they, or are they not, a blantant copy of an E-head (port wise), except the quality control isn't as good as they could/should have been??? I'm not knocking it if it is a copy, I just think that if it is, Brandon needs to admit it...... 
Would it be possible to solve this gasket overhang issue with a different head gasket? Cometic possibly? I really hate to see this problem pop up...I sure hope that it's an isolated case. Maybe this is a problem that Brandon can address in future heads.
Thanks for the info Dwayne  , can't wait to see the full flow chart for these heads. Nice to see you've had a look at these heads, and spotted the things the average joe would not.

Cometic makes a gasket with a 4.600" bore, but if that doesn't clear the chamber, then what? Shame if to not have any gasket issues you'd have to get cometic to cut you some custom gaskets.
4.600 gasket would probably overlap into the next chamber. 


 H as Brandon seen this? What's up?
I was wondering the same thing. Hopefully he will see this in the next day or two and offer comments on Dwayne's findings.
That is terrible.....

It is, however, typical of the low dollar Chinese parts. There isn't any real effort to make sure that everything is addressed. True of other parts like body panels, then it should come as no surprise that there are fitment issues. I mean really, does anyone believe that there was significant testing and R&D done on these before they were issued to the public?? i wonder what the QC department looks like?? I imagine a dimly lit room with a guy bathed in sweat, cigarette hanging out of his mouth gives them a look to make sure that there are 4 intake ports and 4 exhaust ports and throws them in the box  . It's all about the money folks. No one has actually been running these heads seriously yet, it will be interesting(but not surprising)if other issues like casting porosity and cracking start to rear their head.

DP, nice bench there 

Mike
I guess it's kind of like buying a "blem" tire or a "scratch and dent" TV. But at least in those cases you know you are getting a compromised product. Do these heads come with an instruction sheet that says "needs some welding/clearancing to install". I doubt it.

nivvy

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Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2008 - 08:45:38 AM »
Quote from: hemiken on Today at 01:43:03 AM
If you had half a clue what you were talking about, i may of given this some thought.  In what way does a 440source head look or perform like an Mopar Edelbrock head, other than the intake bolts up the same and the standard valve covers can be bolted on each in the same manner.

quote from another RACER on moaprts "Just got done doing some very mild port work on these 440 Source heads. Nothing new to anyone on here probably, they are alot like the Edelbrocks ofcourse."

I would love to know how many sets of heads you have done any port work on and if you infact have even ran your fingers around a 440 source intake runner to feel what shape they are.

I have seen the crap that goes on in Moparts.  It is all a load of crap over there.  All i see is "if it aint American made, i would not buy it" time to wake up people. If you want products at realistic prices and of quality, you have to do the hard yards and make it happen, and if contracting overseas work helps and makes a product cheaper, then so be it.

If i remember rightly, 73_ralley asked the question here, i replied with real world knowledge and not something someone else had writting.  So unless you know what you are talking about, put up or shut up..........  :2thumbs:

I am with Dwayne. I would just put them back in the box and look for a call tag.

Mike
I don't think Dwayne was blindsiding anyone..He was giving his professional opinion and findings..I am sure that he would do the same on any aftermarket head...You have to respect the man for that... 
But if you cant find a head gasket to fit what good is it.
He showed what he found and backed it up with clear photos showing a potential problem. Dewayne does not need me to defend him and although he is technically my "competion" I consider his opinions about CHrysler heads in particular to be on the money. Who exactly would be more qualified to give their opinion of these heads or any other new heads for Mopars? Someone who has spent their entire adult life working with virtually ALL of them and has results to back it up or someone on the internet?

What filler metal would you use to TIG up the areas in question?
Sounds like the dowel pin holes are slightly off on one or more heads.
Being a NON-stock head I first noticed, the drain back holes, were partly blocked, by the gasket
I thought that was already covered. Weld up the area and mill the heads or have a custom gasket made. I imagine there are more fixes but I think welding and milling would be the best route.
Them still look too close on the outside elges..looks like it is still hanging in there some..
I think the springs did look upside down. Thanks for pointing that out
What about the step under the insert?  I hate to tig that area., I'm looking at a alum epoxy(?), I work at the airport, gonna ask the AP mech. about it. Monday
Is there any info that comes with the heads stating "Oh, by the way, you cant use FelPro gaskets, and if you use ROL gaskets, you will have to elongate all the holes"? 
Something as simple as gasket fitment should have been taken care of during the ..ummm...R&D.. stages.
oh yea... and what is wrong with constructive critcism ??? 
I dont care if they are $8.00 or $800.00/pr. There is no reason the end consumer should have to modify a part (i.e. weld the chambers) to make it do what it was orginally intended to do. Unless the part is sold with a disclaimer which states "Some welding may be required". 

Cuda-Challenger.com

Re: 440 source heads vs Edelbrook rpm heads
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2008 - 08:45:38 AM »