Author Topic: AAR / T/A Handling  (Read 67263 times)

Offline Mr. 440SixPack

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2007 - 03:27:43 am »
jvike, thank you for all the info and photos. I saw your video some time ago and I gave you the first comment with a question :bigsmile: (I used nick "Burn") You gave me the answer now in your post :worshippy :D I see that there are a few turns in the video that you could do much faster, I know you are not a race driver and don't want to lose your cuda so I understand why you didn't go faster.

Whats this XV DVD all about? Where can I get it?

I would love to know more about Tom's AAR cuda and also have more photos of it. Does he race only for fun?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2007 - 03:36:18 am by Mr. 440SixPack »
My dream: 1970 Plymouth 'Cuda 440+6 Pack/4 speed Pistol Grip/Dana 60 rearend/PS, PB/Lime Light/Shaker hood/Rallye dash...





Offline jvike

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2007 - 05:15:46 am »
Mr. 440. I am sorry that I did not answer yout question before. My bad.  :-\ When I watch the video I can see what you are talking about. What you don't see in the video is the latheral g forces. The stock seats does not give any sideways support, but I had installed four point seatbelts for the weekend so I didn't move that much around. Also the turns are much sharper then they look, but of course bodyroll make it feel sharper than it really is. Another point is that going trough sharp turns the stock oilpan can't hold the oil at the picup and you loose oilpressure and I guess the same thing is happening in the carburetor. This means that I do not get any power out of the curves. I need to work on that to get more punch out of the corners. Another thing going trough corners is that you really feel the big engine in the front (and i have a small block). I drove it to the limit of understeer a few times, atleast it felt that way, so again weight distribution and tires. I really tried to make it go fast around the corners, you can hear how I chase the gas pedal in some corners to get my tail out and trie a litle drifting, but It wouldn't (275's and open 2.91:1 rear end). I'll install sure-grip an 3.23 next week.  8)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007 - 08:04:51 pm by jvike »
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Offline Tom Quad

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2007 - 05:51:53 am »
Thanks to Barry for the link
I will respond in depth tonight when i have more time.
It's not crazy to think a 1970 car can complete with today's technology.  Actually it is easily done and you too can run away from the corvettes and others.

Offline HP2

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2007 - 06:24:55 am »

 Though stock vs stock an import (BMW, Honda, Subaru, etc) would teach the E-Body many a lesson.  My point was, a stock E-Body will never handle good.

With some decent mods and $$$ spent they can of course corner. Don't have to be an expert to realise that, just need some cash.

 Perhaps we need a sticky on HOW to make an E-Body handle and what parts are out there to give us a 3 pedal go kart.



Stock vs stock, which was the original question, I think we all agree, the AAR and TA factory versions will not hang with a modern car. Look at the context of the era 35 years ago compared to today and the publics expectations of performance have changed so that even a modern econo car has higher springs rates than some muscle cars. I wouldn't go so far as to say that an E body would NEVER handle good.


As for decent mods, it actually doesn't take a whole lot of cash to get an E body to turn corners. As I posted originally, mopars geometry is very good. It biggest failing points are spring and shock rates. New t-bars average $200, new leaf springs, $200, front or rear sway bars $200. That's under a grand for hte foundation of your suspension. Now shocks are were you should dump as much money as you can stand. $1000 for good shocks would not be an unreasonable expectation. The factory stype 11.75 front rotors with some 4 piston calipers will go a long way to improving stopping power too. Rear disc kits could be added too if you really have track time in mind. Another big impact to sticking, good tires. BFGs are not a tire built for great handling, although you can get great results with a competition style 15", 17" wheels and tires are going to give you huge gains over rallye wheels. Another problem  a lot of guys over look is their alignment. Most shops are going to pull out the 35 year old specs that were designed for skinny hard bias ply tires and slap it on you E body. Radials can take a much broader range of changes thana bias ply, and those changes can result in significant improvements in the driving experience.

There are already a couple threads about handling in the forum. Maybe we should sticky one of them.

Offline Carlwalski

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2007 - 07:05:35 am »


True, but stock, they can go around corners. I guess it comes down to what you perceive as a good handling car vs what I perceive as a good handling car. Trucks can take corners but it doesn't make them good handlers. Doesn't take a lot of cash to make them handle "better" but it takes a fair amount to make them handle good.

Offline HP2

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2007 - 09:07:07 am »
My perception of a good baseline would be an average, modern commuter car. Heck, in completely stock form, any modern ute will out handle an original muscle car. My perception of great would be 1+ lateral G. For under $1000, an E body can meet the same baseline as a modern commuter car. For $3000, it can pull 1G, and be on par with any vette, mustang, gto, or holden.  For $10k, it will be in circuit car territory and comparable to any modern supercar.

So perhaps we should define what the members want to define as stock. Stock as in original, or restored to original spec with tooth pick thin .80-.90 torsion bars, under 1" sway bars and skinny oil shocks. Or stock as in original style components mounted in the original locations using the original geometry with improved wheel rates. Using the later, it is easy to get modern performance. Using the former, and you will be regulated to only wanting to drive your E body to the local show and shine or parade.

I've spent the last 25 years building and driving circuit cars. Something I've learned along the way is that mopar suspensions are just like mopar engines; the are a very good baseline to begin with. With simple improvements, they work great, where as competitors sometimes require significant changes to correct inherent geometry issues to get to a point where a good baselines can be found. The only major drawback to a stock style, mopar torsion bar suspension is that the variety of spring rates available for them is limited, especially compared to a GM chassis where you can buy any spring rate from 150 to 1500 pounds in 50 pound increments. With a mopar you only have six choices of torsion bars.

However, when it is all said and done it doesn't mater much any way. There are very few muscle era mopars that still compete in any serious circuit series. With drag racing as an exception, most are now limiting themselves to vintage style or open track day events where the focus is on fun and driver improvement and not serious wheel to wheel competition. Muscle cars have evolved into the same creatures as exotic supercars; highly desireable with great capability available to them that very rarely drop the hammer in anger. 




 

Offline Carlwalski

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2007 - 09:36:23 am »


Well put and worded. Unlike you, I don't have 25 years track driving experience. Though, that doesn't mean I can't drive or tell from the seat of my pants or know what a good car is or how a car handles. The rest of the post of yours is above my head a little (tech), I'll be the first to admit that, not a problem. As the first post was based on stock, then the answer is quite simple. An E-Body in stock form will not compete with any car of similar power today - end of story. That's (as someone mentioned) like a Challenger T/A taking on a 32 Ford coupe around a track.

I use to think E-Bodies could never handle but after doing plenty of research, reading and watching topics and seeing them for myself, after some mods and settings these cars can truly look like they were meant for taking corners. Heck, the XV DVD clearly shows the XV 001 car basically on rails minimal or expected body roll and tight, nice to see.


:thumbsup:

Offline willhaven

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2007 - 10:56:05 am »
That purple AAR Cuda shown on the track on the first page. I believe that car has a Reilly Alterktion front end with coilovers. I don't believe it's stock. I'm about 90% sure I read that somewhere.

I'm still waiting to see the performance numbers from the XV Challenger. How much does 35-40K worth of parts get you in terms of performance? :dunno:

Offline Bullitt-

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2007 - 11:03:44 am »
This has had me doing a bit of mental bench racing and about everything has been said. No way can the '70's cars in stock trim be competitive, give them the benefit of upgrades all the way to the XV setup and there is still a basic physics problem that will not be overcome with anything close to stock form and that is weight distribution. Already mentioned is the front/rear issue but as well there is the center of gravity. If nothing else the heavier materials used in construction put the center of gravity higher than the modern counterpart & would limit the e-body's competitiveness. I won't even get into aero.
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Offline willhaven

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2007 - 11:12:51 am »
You saying the cheese grater grille isn't aerodynamic?! :sly:

Offline Bullitt-

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2007 - 11:18:10 am »
I said "I won't even get into aero." I'd have to do more thinking and my head aleady hurts.  :D
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
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Offline Tom Quad

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2007 - 06:46:03 pm »
That purple AAR in that particular picture has almost stock suspension in it at that time...since I own it I should know.  It has progressed into something more since that photo.

In stock form with the correct service replacement parts any mopar  with f/r sway bars will handle surprisingly well.  We set up a stock superbird to run Watkins Glen and it did well for its SIZE

If you do what I have listed below you will have quite the hot rod.

 Now go get whatever you think is fast and get ready for your beating :dogpile:

Here is how it is configured now with the cost. 

Quad Level One AAR Cuda $3044 less tires/wheels

Tubular uca Urethane bushing   RMS Chassis Components     250
Tubular adj strut rods w/rod ends RMS Chassis Components  199
Box lower control arms               50
Shocks QA1 adjustable   QA1            580
Springs Stock AAR                  0.00
Urethane Spring bushings                 40
Torsion Bars 1.040    Mopar               150
Sway Bars 1-1/8 front    rear   Firm Feel      500
adj front spring hanger [lowers car]            100
11/16 Seamless Tubing Tie Rod sleeves  Firm Feel       175
20:1 Manual Steering mopar               375
Brake upgrade: wildwood dynalyte calipers
12 inch stock rotors, spindles                 625
Total less wheels and tires                  $3044




16x8 Alum wheels with 255-50-ZR16 tires         1500

Offline Street_Challenged73

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2007 - 08:03:53 pm »
Thanks for the information Tom. :cheers:  It'll be a nice way to gauge what upgrades I plan on doing to my Challenger will help it corner as much as I'd like it to.  One quick question though.  How much do you think keeping stock UCA's limit the car's capability to perform well through a corner? (Stamped steel vs. tubular) :dunno:  My original plan was to re-use the original UCA's, but I've thought about going the extra step and going over to tubular ones with the heim joints instead of bushings. (I planned on using the offset UCA bushings to help with the + caster.)
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Street_Challenged73 from Wisconsin

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2007 - 08:17:25 pm »
Hey Tom,
I got a couple questions (or four) too.

Gear ratio?

Highest speed on the straights?

Course length and average lap time / speed?

Highest speed on the highway going home?  ;)

Also, for those of you who may not know, Tom is one of the major contributors to the "found" section on my website.

Thanks Tom, you made another person very happy this month.  :wave:

Barry


Offline Carlwalski

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2007 - 08:34:52 pm »


 Now go get whatever you think is fast and get ready for your beating :dogpile:

Here is how it is configured now with the cost. 

Quad Level One AAR Cuda $3044 less tires/wheels

Tubular uca Urethane bushing   RMS Chassis Components     250
Tubular adj strut rods w/rod ends RMS Chassis Components  199
Box lower control arms               50
Shocks QA1 adjustable   QA1            580
Springs Stock AAR                  0.00
Urethane Spring bushings                 40
Torsion Bars 1.040    Mopar               150
Sway Bars 1-1/8 front    rear   Firm Feel      500
adj front spring hanger [lowers car]            100
11/16 Seamless Tubing Tie Rod sleeves  Firm Feel       175
20:1 Manual Steering mopar               375
Brake upgrade: wildwood dynalyte calipers
12 inch stock rotors, spindles                 625
Total less wheels and tires                  $3044




16x8 Alum wheels with 255-50-ZR16 tires         1500




http://www.mitsubishicars.com/MMNA/jsp/evo/06/index.do With or without the "Quad upgrade". Or my TS50 would do nicely. They will handle "surprisingly" well stock, but not good. The XV video or any stock racing video demonstrates this perfectly. Weight and body roll being the major factors. With a bit of coin and some modern components they seem to handle very nicely, on rails almost (as per the XV001 car) and others I have seen. Good input though into what you have done to your car. Always good seeing someone different. Most E-Bodies are going straight (what they were built for) so good on you (and the others on board) for going in the other direction, literally.  :biggrin: