Author Topic: AAR / T/A Handling  (Read 68580 times)

Offline Mr. 440SixPack

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AAR / T/A Handling
« on: April 20, 2007 - 12:45:29 pm »
OK we all now that these two were the best handling Mopars back in the day...but what about now? :clueless:
I have read somewhere that even today these two muscle cars handle very good in comparison to new cars? Is it true? Had anybody on Cuda-Challenger ever try to race on the race course with AAR cuda or T/A challenger...stock ofcourse?
Can they keep up with any new sports car in the corners?

I am really interested in this because everybody is talking about trans am mopars handling but I haven't heard or seen any facts about it.

Thanks for your answers. :worshippy
My dream: 1970 Plymouth 'Cuda 440+6 Pack/4 speed Pistol Grip/Dana 60 rearend/PS, PB/Lime Light/Shaker hood/Rallye dash...





Offline jeryst

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2007 - 12:50:41 pm »
It it's true, I'd like to know what makes it true. Shocks, sway bars, etc? What would it take to replicate it?

Offline 360 'CUDA

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2007 - 12:57:23 pm »
As far as I know a TA car has the standard 'CUDA or R/T suspension with a rear swaybar and a longer pitman arm but I bet Barry can tell us exactly the differences

Offline Carlwalski

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2007 - 01:27:29 pm »


If they can keep up with a 2006 sports car on the track stock vs stock, the guy driving the modern car can't drive. There is no way they would handle like a modern car around corners. Even with a good stiffening kit and modern suspension package from someone like XV Motorsports they couldn't, they'd be a great handling car for a 1970's coke bottle but still not what I would consider a real circuit car. I like seeing them on the track though. Also, the Mustangs were the king of the Tran-Am series weren't they? The AAR and T/A didn't do to well.


:2cents:

Offline Mr. 440SixPack

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2007 - 01:34:31 pm »
Well...There shouldn't be any big problems to go VS civic or any other FWD car :poopoke:  :popcorn:
My dream: 1970 Plymouth 'Cuda 440+6 Pack/4 speed Pistol Grip/Dana 60 rearend/PS, PB/Lime Light/Shaker hood/Rallye dash...


Offline Carlwalski

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2007 - 02:12:29 pm »


I love Mopars as much as the next poster but stock vs stock a Honda FWD with 1.8 would still get around tight corners quicker than an AAR or T/A on the track IMO. Definitely any of the E-Bodies (big block). They were made for straight line and the cars which hit the tracks in the TA series were very different from the AAR and T/A road versions that were accessible to the public. Done up, no doubt they can corner but with money even a Hummer can corner.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007 - 02:20:50 pm by NZ440R/T »

Offline HP2

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2007 - 02:43:49 pm »
XV did road course test a fully restored, all original TA to create the baseline that they are using for comparison of their system gains. If anyone has followed the XV series on Dreamcar garage, or done any research into suspension sytems, you would know that the GEOMETRY of a stock Mopar is actually pretty good. The spring and shock rates certainly need to be improved upon to make them more comparable to a modern car. Once that change is done, then yes, they do perform quite well, even in big block form, compared to a modern car.

Comparable to a modern performance car, well, sorta. Ultimately road holding ability is about a cars balance, tires, spring, and shock rates. Match these items car to car, and a E body is right in the fight, but stock to stock, not a chance. Remember the physics of holding a corner do not care if you have leaf springs or coil overs, aluminum spindles or iron. 

If you go back in the day, Mustangs, Camaro, and Javelins did win more championships than the Mopars, if for no other reason than their duration in the series and the factory commitment to the teams. Chrysler only official participated in Trans Am for one year. In that year the Mopars qualified up front regularly, but engine and transmission failures usually resulted in DNF, which will kill chamionship potential.

If you ever get a chance to look under the original TA race cars, they are much more trick than just leaf springs and torsion bars. Everything is adjustable. There are adjustable sway bars and even panhard bars to change roll center location in the rear, which is rarely seen on a leaf spring suspension. Also, while not available today, they used gun drilled torsion bars with variable indexing anchors from the Nascar program. Some of these bars came in HUGE sizes of up to 1.8 inches across (1.22 is the biggest you can stick in a stock anchor, BTW).

Alaskan_TA

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2007 - 08:21:56 pm »
Some of the AARs and T/As are still used on road courses. If you know Tom Quadrini at all, try and catch his purple AAR with your import on the track. I wish you luck, you will need it.  :wave:

Barry

Offline Carlwalski

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2007 - 08:25:21 pm »


Is it fully stock? Be a nice body roller in stock form. If I were to pick an import stock vs stock it would need to be somewhere around the same output hp wise. Maybe an Evo or WRX. I'm no race track driver but given to someone with experience around the same track as Tom Q I feel the Import would do rather well and ultimately win. It's hard to overlook and swallow the pride of my Mopars but I like to tell it how it is without saying it just to "say it".

Offline Mr. 440SixPack

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2007 - 03:04:29 am »
Some of the AARs and T/As are still used on road courses. If you know Tom Quadrini at all, try and catch his purple AAR with your import on the track. I wish you luck, you will need it.  :wave:

Barry

HP2 thank you for very interesting post :worshippy It is funny when people talk that car with leaf springs can't handle. :blah:
The new Z06 smokes everything in the corners and it has leaf springs at the back :burnout:

Barry, I have some photos of that AAR on my PC but I didn't know who is the driver. I also want to know If it is fully stock? From the photos I already see that it has new tires on :dunno:
« Last Edit: April 21, 2007 - 03:07:15 am by Mr. 440SixPack »
My dream: 1970 Plymouth 'Cuda 440+6 Pack/4 speed Pistol Grip/Dana 60 rearend/PS, PB/Lime Light/Shaker hood/Rallye dash...


Offline Katfish

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2007 - 04:12:06 am »
It's hard to overlook and swallow the pride of my Mopars but I like to tell it how it is without saying it just to "say it".

I agree, it's crazy to think a 1970 car could complete with today's technology.  Would anyone give a 1935 Ford (don't even know what that looks like) a chance against the AAR or T/A?

The cars were ahead of their time, but that was almost 40yrs ago!


Offline jvike

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2007 - 01:02:56 pm »
I am no race expert, but I think I am one of very few on this bord that take my e-body to a roadrace track. I have to say I agree with NZ. These car will not hold up stock vs stock. My Cuda is not a AAR so I do not have torque boxes or rear sway-bar. The cars biggest problem is bodyroll. Rear sway bar will probably make it a whole lot bether, but for those of you that have seen XV's dvd you can see the '71 'Cuda go around corners with alot of bodyroll and it has a swaybar.

This photo show the bodyroll. The year after I changed the shocks, boxed the LCAs, installed polyutherane brushing, swaped the 318-spec torsion bars to HEMI bars and installed subframe connectors. Last year I felt a big difference in the car, but it felt like the huge tires held me back. As you can see in the next photo, same corner, still bodyroll. (Note that I still do no have a rear swaybar).


The car in front of me (also with alot of bodyroll) is an early 90's Opel Omega. Not a sportscar. Next photo also show some bodyroll but I could keep a fairly good pace trough that corner.


Somewhere in this thread people started to talk about the Race AAR's those are in a diffrent league, It is heavyly modified and will in my opinion probably hold a today stock cars around a track, but a modified? No. In my mind the drawbacks of the e-body (suspension) is bodyroll, tires and weight distribution. To go fast around tracks it also lacks brakes. I might get a chance to run the track with low profile 17" tires this year and I think it will make a great impact on my laptime. If you haven't seen this here is a film from my track experiences, I go past som BMW's in the straight, but a 400hp turbo Volvo 240 have no problem overtaking me.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3898514208084208164
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Offline Carlwalski

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2007 - 07:30:33 pm »


Good input Jvike. That XV DVD is a good one, lots of goodies for sale too. I'm pretty sure the driver said he felt the B-Body Coronet? was a better feeling car around corners than the E-Body. That's not saying too much about our beloved Cudas & Challengers. Yupe, body roll is the killer. Stock vs Stock there is no way our E-Bodies can win against any modern car of the same hp out put and probably a lot less too. A 200hp RWD would probably clean it up. Under brakes, mid corner and exit speed. It's hard to say it but I still feel (as is the case with a lot of topics on this board), members are telling it how they like to hear it, not how it actually is.


Alaskan_TA

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2007 - 08:34:52 pm »
Tom's AAR is not fully stock, but I would assume that neither are the imports that race on the same tracks. Tom does drive his car to and from the race course though.

Tom has modified the car quite a bit, I emailed him with a link to this thread, hopefully he has the time to provide some expertise for anyone who does want an E-Body to handle well in the corners. When the time comes, I am hoping that he will help me get my T/A dialed in.  :bigsmile:

Barry


Offline Carlwalski

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Re: AAR / T/A Handling
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2007 - 08:43:51 pm »


Cool, sounds good. Though stock vs stock an import (BMW, Honda, Subaru, etc) would teach the E-Body many a lesson. XV already make a fantastic range of products to make the E-Body a handler and stick it with some of the new cars out there. My point was, a stock E-Body will never handle good. With some decent mods and $$$ spent they can of course corner. Don't have to be an expert to realise that, just need some cash. :lol: I feel we have one thing in common, I too am going for the circuit build over the typical straight line spec car. Subframes, torque boxes, rad supports, custom strengthening bars, modern suspension, low weight items etc. Perhaps we need a sticky on HOW to make an E-Body handle and what parts are out there to give us a 3 pedal go kart.


:cheers: