Author Topic: 522 stroker overheating  (Read 115 times)

Offline Kevin71

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522 stroker overheating
« on: May 15, 2019 - 10:08:34 am »
Have a fresh 522 storker ( 520 hp)installed with a march pulley system, champion radiator 3 core, and ac.  Called March and they said if the water is flowing to fast it won't cool because it doesn't have time to absorb the heat or to dissipate it.  With all the high flow water pumps out there I find this hard to believe.  Was told by a old mechanic to check the radiator flow and that it should be at least 30 gal per minute flowing at least.  Car is overheating at 30 to 40 mph.  So fans shouldn't be the problem.  One large electric fan of unknown CFM's with a shroud
Can the water flow to fast?




Offline jhaag

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Re: 522 stroker overheating
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2019 - 10:42:03 am »
Yes, absolutely. Did you get pulleys from March matching stock sizes? You may be turning the water pump too fast. They also have under driven pulleys that will turn the pump too slow. Tell more, overheating only at the mph you said? Does it overheat at idle, driving at 60? More info might help....
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Offline 70chall440

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Re: 522 stroker overheating
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2019 - 12:27:07 pm »
What water pump are you using? I have a hard time believe it only over heats at a specific speed/rpm. Normally, an engine will overheat below an RPM range or over an RPM range.

To the point, yes you can over spin a water pump (or PS pump, alternator, etc). and they will not work effectively, but this is a system so everything has to be looked at together. At low RPM or speed, the fan needs to come on or be working to effectively cool the engine.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6, 73 Cuda (under const)
05 Durango, 99 Dakota, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR, 61 Jeep FC170
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Kevin71

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Re: 522 stroker overheating
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2019 - 12:28:25 pm »
Dont' have a clue a shop that was building the car put it on.  I had to pick the car up in pieces from the shop.  Things didn't work out.  I will check with march of how to tell what size I have.  Thx.

Offline Kevin71

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Re: 522 stroker overheating
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2019 - 12:36:29 pm »
Well this is what has happened.  I have owned this car for 15 years and have had upteen different people fool with it.  So I got a shop that finished putting it back together.  Pick up the car drive it home 30 miles at traffic speeds and up to 65 it then starts overheating, hits 220 on gauge and big bang.  Take the car back and we got a cracked block.  Get a new block swap all the parts over.  Picked up the car drove to gas station filled it up.  5 miles.  No overheating.  Leave the gas station turn on the ac, idle at the red light a few minutes and start going down the road 55 mph.  Starts overheating hits 210.  I pull over call the shop they send a guy out, by this time its cooled down.  So he says bring back leave the ac off took a side road and ran 35 to 40 non stop for 2 miles and it starts going over 200 again.  In the next mile to the shop gets up to 230.  I am at a loss as well as the mechanic.

Offline Kevin71

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Re: 522 stroker overheating
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2019 - 12:41:39 pm »
March says there are only one set of pulleys for this setup.  It's all inclusive called style track.  The water pump came from them and flows more than stock they say but don't how much more.

Online Oldschool

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Re: 522 stroker overheating
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2019 - 01:05:54 pm »
Factory or aftermarket water pump housing?
Ken  --  In Georgia

MOPAR-------"Built To Run------Here To Stay"

Offline 70chall440

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Re: 522 stroker overheating
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2019 - 01:25:08 pm »
That is quite the story. I am not quite sure how over heating cracked the block unless it got super hot. Normally overheating does things like blow head gaskets, warp heads or seize engines.

Lets take a moment and look at this situation holistically and try and give you some things to look at/think about.

First off, the cooling system is just that, a system. Everything must work together and be compatible in order for it to function correctly or better said adequately.

- The radiator must be able to dissipate enough heat to cool the engine, this is done by overall size, core size/number and manufactured materials (brass, aluminum). The radiator size typically matches what the car was designed to use (22 or 26" for a Mopar). The core size (internal tubes) are selected by the manufacturer to accomplish a specific task. You will see 2, 3 and 4 core radiators, however some manufacturers use less (like 2) cores or tubes but they are big in order to accomplish the task. There is a lot of debate/argument about which is better (more cores or bigger core) but to be honest, they can do the same thing in many cases. In general, a large tube aluminum radiator will cool a big engine (all things considered).

- The radiator cap; this small yet important component must be correct for the application. It must relieve pressure in the system when needed. Too light and the car will puke water/coolant too quickly, too heavy and it will allow the car to over heat and damage the engine.

- radiator hoses much be rigid enough so that they do not collapse (due to the sucking of the water pump and heat) when being used.

- The water pump should be adequate to move coolant through-out the system in adequate volume to meet the demands of the system. A factory BB water pump is pretty good, the high flow after market pump can be good but they are some that are "drag race only" and really are only effective at high RPM/speed. In general, a good Milidon high flow pump or even a factory pump will get it done.

- The T stat, this must open and close as designed at the right temp in order to regulate the engine temp. These are pretty simple and available with even simple parts store samples working very well. That said, I always drill a 1/8 hole in the rim of my T stat to allow air to make its way out of the system. I really like "fail safe" thermostats because if they die they do so in the open position verses the closed position as normal T stats do

- Your coolant; you need to be using proper coolant and not just tap water (common problem with old hot rodders). straight water is fine in a race car but not a street car. First off, straight water does not have the anti corrosion properties that anti freeze has and therefore will cause/support rusting inside the water jackets. Additionally, antifreeze helps with heat dissipation during operation. You can also use an additive such as "water wetter" to further help with dissipation.

- your fan must be large enough to move enough air to cool or remove heat from the radiator. It needs to cover as much of the radiator as possible to pull air across as much of the radiator as possible. Of course there is a limit to this size and that is where the shroud comes in (more on that in a sec). If using an electric fan/s, they need to be large enough, spin fast enough and come on at the right time to effectively remove heat from the radiator. If using a mechanical fan, it needs to be large enough to pull air through the radiator. A clutch fan is fine and they work good because they have a thermo spring in them that essentially expands and it gets hot and locks the fan up more (making it turn more) as it gets hot.

- your shroud much be of a proper design to "funnel" air being pulled by the fan. It should be sealed around the sides to a degree so air cannot escape and over or very near the fan so that the fan can create the vortex effect.

Some other things to consider;

Your compression ratio - if you are running a high CR motor, they require a very big and effective cooling system because they generate a lot of heat quickly. Racers use things like water wetter to assist in this effort.

Your timing - if you are running too much advance the engine will make a lot more heat and overcome your cooling system

Water jackets - depending on where your "replacement" block came from, if there are any obstructions in the water jacket it will cause the engine to overheat. There is really no real way to know this as you cannot see into the water jackets without pulling out all of the freeze plugs and inspecting them. Since this is a new engine, I would hope that it was flushed at some point before being built.

Your pulley system - as stated, you can spin things too fast or too slow but if you bought a kit I would no think this would be an issue unless you bought something designed for race cars only.

The area in front of the radiator - if there are a lot of things or things blocking the front of radiator, that can have an effect but unless you have cardboard or something closing off the radiator, this should not be an issue.

Cooling issues can be very frustrating as you are finding out and some engines have more issues than others but based on your story something else is going on here given that the first engine failed. You have some major component not functioning correctly such as the radiator or perhaps the water pump. I will say this, there are water pumps designed for Marine applications that are designed to run backwards, thus they do not work in cars. Hard to believe you would have one of those but you never know.

This issue needs to be diagnosed methodically and addressed smartly rather than just throwing parts at it. Based purely on what you are saying, my "guess" would be bad radiator, bad water pump, or a combination of things.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6, 73 Cuda (under const)
05 Durango, 99 Dakota, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR, 61 Jeep FC170
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Kevin71

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Re: 522 stroker overheating
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2019 - 08:07:52 pm »
Block was pre 66 without webbing on the sides and they pron to crack and is why they went to rib on the later years.  Just what I have been told.  Probably hair line crack from a freeze and when subjected to higher pressure it failed. 

Offline Kevin71

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Re: 522 stroker overheating
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2019 - 08:39:29 pm »
I have spoke with several people today as well.  70 Chally 440 that was well put.  Professional engine builder built the engine. I did go down on the cam in it.  I am told and I don't have the specs in front of me that it pretty mild cam.  Engine builder called comp cams about what to put in it.  I wanted more vacuum increase if I want power brakes.  And just be more driveable.  It was cleaned inspected and gone thru.  Coolant is in it.  Thermostat is 180'.  I don't know if a hole was drilled in it but I am familiar with doing that.  Radiator was brand new 5 years ago from Champion.  26"  3 core on their recommendation but when question recently on any specs they don't have any.  I asked how do you recommend something and they said best off reviews and complaints.  Strange I thought but I don't sell radiators everyday.  Be Cool at least say there application is based on the HP rating.  However I am sure that got to very quite a bit depending on whats built.  Most of these things have been investigated. Engine builder says you need to know how much the radiator flows.  Need 30 gals per min or more.  He says back in the day there was chart that told how much flow was needed.  One guy says To much flow and it won't absorb the heat in the block as well because it's moving to fast.   If it goes to slow doesn't cool effectively.  After all things considered I am thinking of ordering a Be cool setup for a 700 hp motor they say that they have sold to many with similar application.  It comes with a new radiator cap, dual fans and controllers.   If it's not cooling it's that leaves water speed or timing.  Carb has been tuned changing jets.  I have a msd distributor.  You should search my name and see all the issues I have had with this car.  It's been close to 10 years and I still haven't driven this car 500 miles.  Test runs add up.  If it weren't for a occasional rush when I do get test run it I probably would have stopped a long time ago. I greatly appreciate everyone's input.  I learn something every time.  I will post again in few days.  I need to try to look at some of things you have brought up.  I think a call to the engine builder on the cam have a talk with comp about timing.  Check the thermostat go with a fail safe.  I like that. 

Offline 70chall440

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Re: 522 stroker overheating
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2019 - 11:56:08 pm »
Seems like you have a decent handle on it. The flow thing I am sure has some basis on science but to be quite honest I sincerely doubt it is flowing too fast unless you have some crazy pump and a real small pulley. That said, I have been wrong before so I never say "never".

The Be Cool system is nice but not cheap as I am sure you know. However, there is a definite advantage to buying a system put together by a manufacturer. I am running a Champion in my Cuda and have not had any issue but am running dual electric fans pulling about 2300 CFM of air. I will say that cooling and fans are one thing that is a bit of a "black art" when it comes to cars. When I was researching my system it was very hard to get really good information. The fan guys are all about CFM, the radiator guys are all about tube size and materials. Some of them talk about HP but that is a misnomer because every vehicle is different. I've been to SEMA several times and have talked to a wide variety of radiator and fan companies and got all sorts of conflicting information.

Personally, I use a IR thermometer (hand held deal) to check the engine to include each cylinder and the cooling system to see if something it vastly different

Keep at it and you will get it figured out.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6, 73 Cuda (under const)
05 Durango, 99 Dakota, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR, 61 Jeep FC170
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Kevin71

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Re: 522 stroker overheating
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2019 - 12:15:16 am »
Thats a great idea.  I have a IR thermometer and have used to check when the thermostat opened.  check the gauge is accurate as well.  Damn I can't believe I didn't think of this.  The march pulley system came with the water pump housing and pump which is to supposed a performance pump.  Hell they dont' really know. This what has been so frustrating about doing this.  I keep thinking well if I have rebuild this or that why not just a few extra and really upgrade it.  Oh it has bit me in the ass big time.   The Be cool come with 2700 csm fans.  Everyone I have talked to says you need two fans.  That being said it's two large tubes in the radiator.  You know at if the water pump housing is a cheap alum cast that is off it could restrict the water.  I have pulled this thing mulitple times and removed all this.  I gasket matched somewhat the old water pump housing and had to trim the gaskets.  It wasn't perfect but way better than it was before so I can see how there could be a problem in this area.  I was also concerned with cavitation behind restricted areas.  It would be hard to get all the air out of the system like that I would think.  I didn't know I need a engineering degree.  Hell of it is the March system was a Xmas present from my wife.  It just more complication, but it's pretty,  Ha Ha Ha.

Offline 70chall440

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Re: 522 stroker overheating
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2019 - 12:56:19 am »
I really think you have something else going on other than the pump, I have slammed many of them in without a care and very seldom have had issues, but then again I am talking about relatively stock engines so there is that. I have a PRW pump on my 340 and it works really well as far as I can tell. I have a Milidon on my 440 and it seems to work well. Unless you have a bad housing in terms of casting and port size, I just don't think this is causing you the problems you are experiencing. Throw a 160 degree T stat in and see if that helps. I suspect you are running a lot of timing which is causing more of this than you would like to think about.

Engines and cars are all about compromise; while the timing might be great for HP, it might be contributing to your overheating issues. Are you by chance running wrapped headers?
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6, 73 Cuda (under const)
05 Durango, 99 Dakota, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR, 61 Jeep FC170
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline Kevin71

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Re: 522 stroker overheating
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2019 - 09:46:44 am »
Thats why a call to cam builder and what do they recommend on the timing.  Any advice on the timing like when it should be all in max advance.  I am thinking the cam builder should be able to tell me this.  The motor is large but it's basicly stock with a mild cam.  It's 10:1 compression is what Carolina motors engines says.  Headers are schumakers shorties.  They could have warped or were warped New?  Why would a warped header cause it to overheat?  It's got aluminum 440 source heads.

Offline jhaag

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Re: 522 stroker overheating
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2019 - 09:54:38 am »
Kevin, in 2 different posts you say you have a 3 core radiator. In your last post you say the radiator has 2 large tubes. What do you really have? I think you have a capacity problem. Do you remember how much total coolant your system holds? You are going to get a lot of opinions on this but I don't believe any of the parts,(pump, housing, pulleys) are the issue. Remember also that the thermostat will regulate water flow through the engine to control the temp. IE 180 stat should keep temp close to 180. 160 close to 160 etc. So a different stat will not fix the problem unless the stat is faulty. In my opinion you need a radiator that has more cooling capacity. Either more tubes or more cooling fins, or both. You are also creating an airflow issue with your ac condenser in front of the radiator. Talk to the people at Bouchillon Performance. They deal with performance cars with a/c all the time and may help shed some light on your issue. Good luck... 
love 70 Challengers