Author Topic: Six Pack issues and rebuilding  (Read 85195 times)

Offline DocMel

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #225 on: July 12, 2014 - 01:06:20 pm »
Howdy:  I havent had a chance to read all replies, but about the holley six pack set ups.  I have allot of experience with the '60-'70s holley six packs, and the gm version, called the tri-powers that were typically only on big block vettes.

Just a general FYI of what I have learned

1.   The new holley six pack set ups do not have the proper metering plates:  While they will run ok out of the box, you cant tune to the optimum performance that the sixs are capable of

2, Holley has lost their technical knowledge of these setups.  I dont even waste time with their so called Tech help

3. Rebuild kits now, and for about the last 20-years, are incorrect in what is included in them.  Will it work, yes, will it be capable of being tuned correctly, not really

Most previous owners have had thier original setups botched up over the years by so called restorers or carb rebuilders.  Most carb rebuilders use rebuild kits that again, dont have the actual parts required for premium tuning as was available back in the day

But there a few rebuilders left that can rebuild six packs and use what is available now and get them to work with a few tricks




Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #226 on: August 30, 2014 - 07:31:03 pm »
Well, after watching the cuda collect dust for the past 4 months, I finally started to put it back together today.
Been extremely busy with work and family, in fact I still am, and the weather has really been too hot for me to have fun working in the garage, but my daughter gave birth to my first grandkid the other night, and it inspired me to get off my duff and get it running again.
So, first thing this morning I lifted off all 52 pounds of the iron manifold, and pulled the pan to get off all the perma seal and the gasket material off. Months ago I tried using one paper gasket under the valley pan and I couldnt get more than a few manifold bolts on. The geometry just didnt work. So I spent a few hours cleaning it all up, and then tried the Hylomar equivalent (because it says so right on the package!) Permaseal #85420. Its blue tacky stuff which hopefully will work.
Thanks from me too Onebadfish.
Got the manifold bolted down this time, and maybe tomorrow Ill reinstall the passenger valve cover (I replaced a few rear stem seals) and start mounting the carbs.
And Docmel, sorry I havent even looked at this thread in a while, but your advice seems spot on. The new kits come with various different universal type gaskets and who knows if they really do the job right. Probably not.
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline CudamanTom

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #227 on: August 30, 2014 - 10:54:22 pm »
Grandpa Tommy,

Congrats!!!  :cheers:

And I understand the hot weather thing. I've hibernated from the heat for the past month.  :stomp:

Keep us posted on what happens.  :2thumbs:

So do you feel that your moving slower now that your a grandpa?  :poopoke:

Honestly, I can't wait to be a grandpa. That is really cool.  :woohoo:

Post pics of the little one when you can please.  :swaying:
1971 Cuda Vert 440-833 - (clone)
1971 Cuda 440-727 - (clone)


Because I like it fast!!!

Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #228 on: September 01, 2014 - 05:38:17 pm »
Little one is fine. Should be home from NICU in about 7 days.
Tried starting it this afternoon, and it coughed and wheezed for about 1-2 minutes again. Wouldnt run.
Checked the oil among other things and found at least one and maybe two quarts of fuel in the oil, so I drained it...again.  :bricks1:
Also saw a small run coming from the front corner of the manifold down into the top of the valley pan  :dogpile:


« Last Edit: September 01, 2014 - 05:45:50 pm by tommyg29 »
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #229 on: September 07, 2014 - 02:00:21 pm »
Im almost ready to throw in the towel.
Maybe tow it to a mechanic I know to give it a shot. I doubt if he has any experience with 6 packs but he might. I know he owns a 69 camaro.
I have drained and replaced the oil 3 times since last weekend. The crankcase keeps flooding with fuel, and the #8 cylinder keeps flooding...hydrolock...the engine stops cranking after a few seconds each time I clear the cylinders. I even have the site plug off the center carb (the outboards arent even mounted) so I know the level in the float bowl is good and Im not even touching the throttle when I crank.
I have no idea how the #8 chamber is flooding, unless the exhaust valve is failing to open at all, and how the crankcase is flooding with fuel, especially so quickly.  :clueless:
I started cranking with the fuel pump OFF, and foot to the floor just to try and clear the fuel but now one last time I think Ill pull the right valve cover and check the operation of the #8 exhaust valve.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014 - 04:05:30 pm by tommyg29 »
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #230 on: September 07, 2014 - 09:47:35 pm »
Click to see video


LOL
I am just happy I got it idling (if you can call it that!), with everything Ive gone through here.
Seems like its only running on about 4-6 cylinders
Ill try to spend some more time on it later in the week.
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline brads70

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #231 on: September 09, 2014 - 08:46:26 pm »
What's your Fuel pressure at? Maybe you need a regulator? Sorry if that's already been covered?
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #232 on: September 09, 2014 - 09:26:42 pm »
Hi Brad
I have a holley in line fuel pressure gauge that reads 7 psi, but I also have a holley FPR just before it on the inner fender that doesnt seem to work when I try to lower the pressure....but, the float is set to just below the site hole, and I would think if the pressure was overwhelming the float/inlet valve it would come streaming out the hole. It isnt.
I probably have a combination of simple problems. One thing at a time I hope to get it. I just dont have a lot of time lately
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline brads70

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #233 on: September 09, 2014 - 10:15:53 pm »
Hi Brad
I have a holley in line fuel pressure gauge that reads 7 psi, but I also have a holley FPR just before it on the inner fender that doesnt seem to work when I try to lower the pressure....but, the float is set to just below the site hole, and I would think if the pressure was overwhelming the float/inlet valve it would come streaming out the hole. It isnt.
I probably have a combination of simple problems. One thing at a time I hope to get it. I just dont have a lot of time lately

These carbs worked just fine before right? Not like you added one and it has the wrong gasket or something inside causing a leak , bad casting,etc..?  Sunk float, needle and seat gone bad?  :dunno: :clueless:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline mopar jack

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #234 on: September 09, 2014 - 10:33:45 pm »
Tommy I would take the center carb off the manifold and set it away from the car and hook it to the fuel pump with  three or four feet of rubber fuel hose. Make sure fuel won't spray around your car and turn on the electric pump. If the carb is leaking you'll know. Do you have the vapor seperator fuel filter with a return line back to the fuel tank? If so I wonder if it's plumbed wrong and fuel is returning back through the vapor recovery line to the breather on the right valve cover very close to cyl. # 8.
Jack

Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #235 on: September 10, 2014 - 04:45:51 pm »
Its my old inboard that I have now rebuilt twice trying to solve this problem. I have replaced all the normal rebuild parts, plus replaced the float bowl. As you can see in the pictures, I dont even have the outboards mounted yet, but I bought two used outboards off a "running six pack" car and rebuilt them too. Turns out my "old" outboards were from a 340 car.

I will try hooking the main up to the fuel by itself to see if fuel leaks anywhere, but I dont have ANY hoses other than fuel line hooked to it for now.
The only way fuel could get into the motor would be down the throat of the manifold. I wonder if the fact a few vacuum orifices on the carb are open could be causing the problem? Or, maybe I need to mount the outboards. I read a few places not to even connect them until the center is running well, but maybe the fact they arent even mounted is leading to a hugely rich condition.....not enough air coming in?? But, I did get it running a few months ago for one trip around the block like this and it ran okay. Still blowing white smoke, but at least all eight fired and ran somewhat smoothly, and...Ive also read at least one guy recommending carb plate blockoffs for this purpose. Thats why I made a pair out of plywood
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014 - 04:55:05 pm by tommyg29 »
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline mopar jack

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #236 on: September 10, 2014 - 09:46:39 pm »
I know you have an  electric fuel pump. Some guys will also use the mechanical with the  electric. If you have a mechanical it is possible for fuel to enter the crank case if the diaprhagm fails.

Jack

Offline HP_Cuda

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #237 on: September 10, 2014 - 10:14:02 pm »
Tommy

Its a side issue but you ned to mount your coil upright like me.

As for the carbs. - have a four barrel intake and a good known carb to test with?

B
1970 Cuda Clone 440 4 speed - sublime green
1970 Cuda 383 4 speed - yellow - SOLD

Offline tommyg29

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #238 on: September 10, 2014 - 10:48:24 pm »
Tommy

Its a side issue but you ned to mount your coil upright like me.

As for the carbs. - have a four barrel intake and a good known carb to test with?

B

Coil upright...why?
I dont have a mechanical pump or a replacement 4 barrel setup.
72 Roadrunner 400-4 Auto-3.23 Gear-Black Cruiser
71 Cuda 440-6 Tribute-Limelight-A833 Close Ratio-4 Sp-Pistol Grip-Dana 3.54 Powr Lok-Rally Dash-Shaker (Sold)
92 Dodge Stealth RT-Twin 15g Turbos-SAFC2 Tuned-Mystic Blue-5 Sp-AWD-Rear Wheel Steering-AutoX'r (Sold)
12 Dodge Charger SXT Plus Blacktop Package-3.6L-8 Sp-Leather-Nav (the wife's)

Multiple SRT's, Rams, Dakotas, Caravans and Neons

...the lines on the road just look like dots!....

Offline jhaag

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Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
« Reply #239 on: September 11, 2014 - 09:17:08 pm »
coils like yours are filled with oil. if it is on it's side some of the windings could be uncovered causing excess heat. see a lot of them mounted like yours but MSD says to mount them upright.
love 70 Challengers