Cuda-Challenger.com

Chryco's Tech Shop => The Body Shop => Topic started by: 70HoosierCuda on October 03, 2016 - 12:39:15 pm

Title: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 70HoosierCuda on October 03, 2016 - 12:39:15 pm
I need to replace both rear frame rails on my '70 'Cuda....unfortunately the trunk pan and floor pans also need replaced (along with nearly everything else :eek7: ).
 Not sure the best way to go about doing the rails in this scenario...any advice, opinions, pictures would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: HP_Cuda on October 03, 2016 - 12:41:48 pm

This is painful but doable.

Basically the car needs to go on a frame rack and measurements taken. Compare those measurements to the factory specs and see if they are within spec. Sometimes when you start a project it starts from a different place then you expect. Meaning that sometimes your car was wrecked and fixed but the frame was not.

Anyway, are you planning on tackling this yourself?
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 70HoosierCuda on October 03, 2016 - 12:55:41 pm
No signs of collision damage..just heavily rusted.
Yes I plan to do all the tasks myself as restoration work isn't new to me but the logistics of this has me somewhat baffled.
Unfortunately I don't have a frame table and would prefer not to farm out the work.
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: anlauto on October 03, 2016 - 01:08:18 pm
Dynacorn sells a one piece rear section where the frame rails, trunk floor, center floor etc...is already assembled in one large piece. That's the way I would do it. You would need to convert the trunk floor from Challenger to Cuda, but other then that it would save you a tremendous amount of work  :2cents:
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 70HoosierCuda on October 03, 2016 - 03:23:50 pm
Dynacorn sells a one piece rear section where the frame rails, trunk floor, center floor etc...is already assembled in one large piece. That's the way I would do it. You would need to convert the trunk floor from Challenger to Cuda, but other then that it would save you a tremendous amount of work  :2cents:

Thanks for the advice.
Found it online...p/n #6000WT...approximate price was $1500.  :wow:
Definitely something to consider. Is the only difference the trunk pan?

Looks like I'd still need a frame table regardless
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: anlauto on October 03, 2016 - 03:53:06 pm
The only difference is the oval circle opening for the gas tank filler in the trunk floor.
I just bought one last week, shipped from California to NY for $1598.00 all in. :2thumbs:
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 72bluNblu on October 03, 2016 - 04:17:46 pm
How rusted is the floor and "everything else"?

I just replaced half of my right side rear rail and about 2/3 of my driver's rear rail, as well as the sections of trunk floor that were above them. I measured everything, removed one rail, replaced it, measured everything again, removed the other rail, replaced it, and measured to make sure I got it right. Then I replaced the trunk floor sections, having left them detached from the new rails when they were installed. But my shock crossmember and rear cross panel were intact, so I was able to leave those in place and weld the rails to them, which allowed me to leave most the trunk floor separate from the new rails.

If there's enough structure and floor left to support the car you can remove the rails one at a time and use the remaining floor to help line up the new rails. Once the rails are located you can get to replacing the trunk floor and anything else. I'm getting ready to do new quarters now that the rails are done. :eek4:
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 70HoosierCuda on October 03, 2016 - 04:58:13 pm
Thanks for the help so far, guys...keep it coming :)

72bluNblu: That's reassuring...I appreciate the input. I'll have to find time to really look over my floors, etc soon and see where I can go from there (it's been covered up in the garage since I got it home).
Any pictures you could share from your work?
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: AARTA340 on October 03, 2016 - 05:37:45 pm
We all know the Cuda has a shorter wheel base than the Challenger, so with that in mind, where is the difference in the two? Somewhere there has to be shorter floor pans or something.  :dunno: :clueless:
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: roadman5312 on October 03, 2016 - 05:52:11 pm
We all know the Cuda has a shorter wheel base than the Challenger, so with that in mind, where is the difference in the two? Somewhere there has to be shorter floor pans or something.  :dunno: :clueless:

                                      :iagree:               :dunno:
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: anlauto on October 03, 2016 - 06:04:59 pm
Rear footwells :2cents:
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 70HoosierCuda on October 03, 2016 - 06:12:27 pm
We all know the Cuda has a shorter wheel base than the Challenger, so with that in mind, where is the difference in the two? Somewhere there has to be shorter floor pans or something.  :dunno: :clueless:

Rear footwells :2cents:

So those would need to be swapped out as well as the trunk pan?
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: anlauto on October 03, 2016 - 07:28:02 pm
So those would need to be swapped out as well as the trunk pan?

NO...those are not included in the WT6000 :2cents:, neither are the trunk extensions which are different between Cuda and Challenger
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: IMNCARN82 on October 04, 2016 - 12:06:47 am
The AMD rear frame rails are a perfect fit. Flawless.  And I never say that.  Best piece I've ever gotten. Worth every penny.  Lot's of work tho.    I put one side in on my cuda.    In general, AMD is by far the best repop. for anything IMO.

R/T
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 72bluNblu on October 04, 2016 - 01:35:53 pm
Here's some pictures of my rail and trunk pan section replacements. Yes, I know, I'm not the greatest MIG welder in the world. But in my defense, a couple of my patches should have been bigger to get out into cleaner metal, and once again I was welding outside, as usual. Were this some kind of show car I probably would have needed to buy a full trunk pan, drop offs, and wheel tubs. But, it's not a show car, I'm not rich, and it seemed like a shame to replace whole panels when 90% of them were good. And thanks to the factory's liberal use of seam sealer, most of the ugly looking stuff gets covered, which is why I didn't grind it all flush. Some of the rust on my car is "typical", some is not. Some of it is very localized, having to do with the rodents that lived in it at some point in it's life using the factory internal bracing to makes homes, ie, stuffing old carpet into the compartmentalized sections of frame, which then rusted out in very specific segments, while the sections on either side were fine.

What I started with

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3461_zpsu73irdqo.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3459_zpsmzhjmejr.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3456_zpsghicbq3a.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3494_zpsssedwkii.jpg)



Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 72bluNblu on October 04, 2016 - 01:36:14 pm
Passenger side rail replacement. This one was replaced from the shock crossmember back, the replacement part is a Sherman piece. It fit well, I had to make a few modifications to the overlap section to get it to slide in but it was pretty simple. The trunk patch was cut from the leftover part of my driver's side trunk patch, which is why it's missing some of the proper grooves. Again, not a show car. I also had to section a piece of the rear cross brace on this side.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3509_zpshmpx1emk.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3512_zpsgg2kru1s.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3519_zpsxvtlo4lr.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3537_zpsazscx8hp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3648_zpssxcyosjr.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3655_zpsqr2rdg04.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3653_zps4gfnrzrb.jpg)
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 72bluNblu on October 04, 2016 - 01:42:03 pm
Driver's side rail replacement. This was done with an AMD piece, it's about 2/3's of the rail. I bought a left over from another member here who needed only the front section. It fit great, although getting the old rail free of the shock crossmember and getting this one in definitely made it more difficult than the passenger side. The section is basically right in the middle where the sway bar mounts attach (woohoo! extra gusset!). I also had a driver's side half of a trunk pan, also a sherman piece, so, that's what I sectioned in there. The floor of my trunk pan is fine, believe it or not, so I left it alone. I did forget to take a picture of this one half way through.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3534_zps9enrenpo.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3650_zpsxga9e5rh.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3649_zpsztf00eul.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3656_zps1essqmgn.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Dark04/Challenger/IMG_3652_zpsgy8pjiai.jpg)
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 70HoosierCuda on October 04, 2016 - 04:59:49 pm
Thanks for taking time to post the pictures...looks like the pieces fit pretty well.
At least you know the structure is sound again
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: wantone on October 04, 2016 - 05:11:59 pm
I paid $3,500 to my local shop to do this work for me.... I pus'd out.
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 70HoosierCuda on October 04, 2016 - 05:19:16 pm
I paid $3,500 to my local shop to do this work for me.... I pus'd out.
What did they replace/repair for that price?
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 72bluNblu on October 05, 2016 - 12:16:25 am
Thanks for taking time to post the pictures...looks like the pieces fit pretty well.
At least you know the structure is sound again

No problem! I'm trying to document this whole thing so I had plenty of pictures. I should probably start a thread, I've got a lot of work to do. In addition to the rear rails I've replaced a decent amount of the front floors and a chunk of the firewall, plus a conversion from an A/C firewall to a non-A/C firewall, and the hotchkis frame connectors this all started with. It's getting full quarters next, and I have to pull the roof skin to repair some of the roof structure. The whole thing is moving into my shop because winter is coming and I'm tired of welding in the wind. I've got to shuffle some cars first. This wasn't supposed to go this deep, but I went past the point of return. I knew my Challenger wasn't perfect when I bought it, and over the last 8 years and 60k miles of daily driving I've learned that it was actually pretty rough, even though it was functional. But as I started into it I've realized it was much worse than I thought. More rust than I expected, and I expected more than a little. The bodywork basically qualifies it as a bondo sculpture, its bad. But I digress.

Yup, everything fit well. Kind of surprisingly well actually, definitely some of the better replacement parts I've used. It's definitely solid. Maybe not the prettiest work, but it's solid and structurally sound, which it wasn't before. I'm kind of a jack of all trades, master of none kind of guy. I do everything on my cars except the machine work on the engines. I'm actually pretty good with a TIG welder, but MIG has never been my thing. And MIG on sheet metal, well, it's not going to fall apart but it's not my best work. But it's a non-numbers '72 that started life with a 318, so it's not a big money car.  Solid driver/corner carver is all
I'm looking for.
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: rhamson on October 05, 2016 - 10:24:25 am
I need to replace both rear frame rails on my '70 'Cuda....unfortunately the trunk pan and floor pans also need replaced (along with nearly everything else :eek7: ).
 Not sure the best way to go about doing the rails in this scenario...any advice, opinions, pictures would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance
If you are not trying to do a show car or concours restoration you might consider a frame cap. I used them and replaced the trunk pan without messing with any of the measuring or straightening problems. I used POR15 over the old rails and when I removed the trunk floor pan I coated the interior of the old exposed frame. Everything else went in perfectly.https://www.autorust.com/ (https://www.autorust.com/)
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 1 Wild R/T on October 05, 2016 - 10:50:18 am
If you are not trying to do a show car or concours restoration you might consider a frame cap. I used them and replaced the trunk pan without messing with any of the measuring or straightening problems. I used POR15 over the old rails and when I removed the trunk floor pan I coated the interior of the old exposed frame. Everything else went in perfectly.https://www.autorust.com/ (https://www.autorust.com/)

With the amount of metal you replaced theres no way I would had not changed the rails... :2cents:
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: rhamson on October 05, 2016 - 12:23:47 pm
I was in the same situation as Hoosier Cuda who as he said "Unfortunately I don't have a frame table and would prefer not to farm out the work". I did not have to move any structural element or sacrifice the integrity of the car to remain as the factory originally made it. It was cheaper and faster and Hoosier Cuda is replacing everything I did. I would do it again if the same situation presented itself.
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: rUNCHARGER on October 05, 2016 - 12:54:56 pm
I've done a lot of cars: I can't see any reason whatsoever to not use that clip that Alan posted.

Sheldon
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: anlauto on October 06, 2016 - 05:26:11 pm
I opened up and looked at the WT6000 floor section. It does not have the hole for the fuel tank fill neck so it can be easily made to fit a Cuda or A Challenger  :2cents:
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 70HoosierCuda on October 06, 2016 - 06:22:12 pm
Would you mind posting a picture of the whole assembly?
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: anlauto on October 06, 2016 - 07:45:08 pm
The part is put away in storage right now and pretty heavy to move around...I'll see what I can do next time I'm over there.
Comes in a weird silver colour ?
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 70HoosierCuda on October 07, 2016 - 12:54:08 am
Thanks, I'd appreciate it.
EDP coating maybe?
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: mopardave on October 07, 2016 - 10:10:29 am
Heres a pic of the rear assembly. I was to do mine again I would definitely go this route instead of piecing and grinding all of those welds.

you really cant see the details, but it has the rear crossmember and extensions in place already.

member price is 1195.00 + freight.
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: mopardave on October 07, 2016 - 10:11:30 am
and as Alan pointed out the FILLER NECK hole is not punched. Which is great because it can be used for either Cuda or Challenger
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: anlauto on October 07, 2016 - 10:16:04 am
I didn't realize you could get that as well...I just got one for Peter's convertible I'm doing....Right now it had to come out of California because there was none at their Penn. warehouse :banghead:

I paid $1299 plus freight.
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: mopardave on October 07, 2016 - 10:31:48 am
Alan.

Anything related to AMD, Goodmark, Dynacorn we can get. as with everything else.
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: anlauto on October 07, 2016 - 11:54:16 am
Yea...I guess I should have thought of that....since the Dynacorn shells are pictured on your web site :banghead:
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: mopardave on October 07, 2016 - 12:43:08 pm
All good. you got the part either way.

the vert that you have, Is that the one that was over here ?
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: anlauto on October 07, 2016 - 01:06:28 pm
All good. you got the part either way.

the vert that you have, Is that the one that was over here ?

Yes, blue/blue/blue white top 383 4spd.....
I think all the basket cases are getting dumped on me :pullinghair:
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: mopardave on October 09, 2016 - 09:45:04 am
eeegads man.

well your body shop does some good work.
Title: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: GoodysGotaCuda on October 09, 2016 - 10:44:41 am
I used replacement rear rails on my Barracuda and kept them "within tolerance", I would say.

Frame table with jigs would be best, a frame table alone would be alright, the method I used was sufficient  if you consider how much these cars varied off the showroom floor and how compliant leaf springs are, it will work just fine. The bumpers can be adjusted out quite easily and that, and the springs are the only real major alignments that can be thrown off back there.

It was quite a bit of work but I feel it was worth it. Keep in mind that this is a "hot rod" build and hardly anything is going to be 100% "correct" on it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: YellowThumper on December 20, 2016 - 12:26:53 pm
I also prefer to do the majority of repairs myself.
You are already looking to have major cutting and welding.
I would consider making your own frame table. To reference from. Some box tubing weld on a few legs with height adjustment bolts to compensate for the floor discrepancies. Top side weld on the set points with a bunch of measured reference points. Car doesn't need to be bolted to it. But it will provide steady measuring points along the way. From specific heights and also plumb bob drop points.

Spending time with the up front will eliminate any future guess work and simplify everything. Most likely some extra work saving even more time on back end.

My2c
Mike
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 70HoosierCuda on December 20, 2016 - 05:17:52 pm
Thanks for the input, Mike....I may need to end up doing this.

I have also considered using a set of adjustable car dollies that use pinch weld mounts but have been unable to locate any yet.
I found this picture as reference to what I'd like to get.

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n236/79ws6resto/14691112_1309219595779383_4558207149810701651_n_2.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/79ws6resto/media/14691112_1309219595779383_4558207149810701651_n_2.jpg.html)
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: torredcuda on December 20, 2016 - 05:41:12 pm
You can fab anything you need to locate and/or measure where everything is before you start cutting, use mounting points, holes etc. and measure front to back, side to side and X measurements and you`ll be OK, also a need to have all the outer body panels to fit before final welding. You can use the factory service manual diagrams fro some measurements and then make you own diagrams for the other ones you take.
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 70HoosierCuda on August 16, 2018 - 08:31:15 am
Heres a pic of the rear assembly. I was to do mine again I would definitely go this route instead of piecing and grinding all of those welds.

you really cant see the details, but it has the rear crossmember and extensions in place already.

member price is 1195.00 + freight.



Dave,
Still contemplating this work (can't believe I started this thread so long ago)...is this piece and price still available?
I see the #444-6000 listed twice on your site with slightly different descriptions...is this the one I would need/be accurate for my '70 'cuda?
Thanks in advance
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: mopardave on August 18, 2018 - 11:22:55 am


Dave,
Still contemplating this work (can't believe I started this thread so long ago)...is this piece and price still available?
I see the #444-6000 listed twice on your site with slightly different descriptions...is this the one I would need/be accurate for my '70 'cuda?
Thanks in advance

I've changed that listed and deleted the duplicate. Yes this will fit any 70-74 E body. only noticeable difference is the shock hole is on top, not in the face of the hump. but that can easily be fixed. price is good and they are in stock
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 70HoosierCuda on August 19, 2018 - 11:57:36 pm
Thanks for the info and update, Dave.
PM and email sent
Title: Re: 'Cuda Rear Frame Rail Replacement
Post by: 70HoosierCuda on November 13, 2018 - 08:35:02 pm
Just to update this thread:

I ended up ordering the Dynacorn WT6000 (floor/trunk section w/rear frame rails) along with a new AMD roof panel and both rear quarter panels (also AMD).
Purchased through "mopardave" ( http://rosevillemoparts.com/ (http://rosevillemoparts.com/) )

The parts arrived pretty quick and in good condition....I'm very impressed with the quality and appearance so far.
It may be quite awhile before I get around to doing any work on the 'cuda but I wanted to update this in case it could help someone else.

Thanks again to all for the help and advice.