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Chryco's Tech Shop => Engine & Go Fast Goodies => Topic started by: tommyg29 on February 02, 2014 - 01:12:26 pm

Title: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on February 02, 2014 - 01:12:26 pm
Oooops,
Took the cuda out to a cruise in last night. Fired it up and drove it about 8 miles, and then later on the way home my wife pulled alongside in her 2012 charger just a few blocks short of home and we just both dropped it. She got a jump on me and pulled about two lengths ahead because my rears spun for a moment, and "trying" to make up for lost ground to try and catch her before we reached about 60mph or so I may have overrevved.
After I shut er down at about 60, still a couple lengths behind, I coasted home from there, and noticed the engine didnt want to idle. It seemed to be running a few cylinders short. I just pulled it into the garage, and hoped for the best. It was late.
Starting er up again today, I noticed a cap off the brake booster, and I only noticed it because it was smoking like crazy. For at least a minute after I turned it off, smoke was pouring out like a boosted bong.
I am going to cap it off again, but should that much smoke be running through the system? Hope I didnt blow a head gasket.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 02, 2014 - 01:40:27 pm

I guess the question becomes "How far did you over rev the motor?"

I would probably start pulling plugs and checking compression on each cylinder and check for water in your oil.

B
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine
Post by: tommyg29 on February 02, 2014 - 01:44:59 pm
I guess the question becomes "How far did you over rev the motor?"

I would probably start pulling plugs and checking compression on each cylinder and check for water in your oil.

B

Was going to do that but it seems the problem must be related to the carburator. I stepped away for 20 minutes, including my first quick posting here, and after it stopped smoking and I found a cap to replace the one that came off, I noticed at least a half gallon of fuel poured out the booster!  :dupe:
Its obviously coming straight out the vacuum line from the rear of the 6 pack. Looks like I have a long afternoon.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 02, 2014 - 01:48:19 pm

Interesting a carb problem after over rev-ing.

If you are leaking out of a vacuum line you have a leak in a gasket somewhere.

Which carb/carbs are you running?
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine
Post by: tommyg29 on February 02, 2014 - 01:56:17 pm
Holly six pack
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 02, 2014 - 02:02:57 pm

Well we can safely say it's the last carb that is spewing fuel. Pull the sight plug and see if it's over flowing then you know you have a float issue.

If so, I'd check the needle and seat and then if nothing else probably pull the carb to see what's going on and break her down.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine
Post by: tommyg29 on February 02, 2014 - 02:05:51 pm
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaengine007.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaengine007.jpg.html)
The line from the rear of the carb to the booster was full of fuel and fuel was pouring out the rear of the carb when I pulled it off
What a mess
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 02, 2014 - 02:09:10 pm

That sucks but you only have to pull one carb to find out what's going on.

It looks like the center carb is newer and the others are older yes?

At least the float bowl looks that way.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine
Post by: cudabob496 on February 02, 2014 - 02:21:07 pm
does your ignition system have a rev limiter?

for an over-rev, I'd be looking at the valve train.  May have some bent rods, etc.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine
Post by: JS27N0B on February 02, 2014 - 02:22:31 pm
Could have blocked the fuel line off and ran the engine out of fuel, then un-block the line and rev the engine quickly as soon as it starts. If there is a piece of debris blocking the needle and seat this usually will clean it off without a carb tear down.


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Title: Re: May have over revved the engine
Post by: tommyg29 on February 02, 2014 - 04:18:58 pm
I have an MSD ignition system and dont think now my issue was actually due to overrevving. I have changed the title of the thread now because I think this is almost certainly a fuel issue. I pulled all 3 sight plugs on the right side and the levels were below the hole.
BUT...
Later this afternoon, on a whim I tried to start the engine again and it was blocked. Pulled all the plugs and three of the cylinders were full of fuel. Cylinders 3, 4 and 8. I actually didnt check #2 because its a PITA to get to.
Tried starting again and it still seems blocked. Although it almost sounded like it could be a dead battery now. Maybe...hopefully. Hope I didnt bend or break anything.
The flooding occurred earlier today, I left the ignition on for a few minutes when I first shut it off after pulling it out of the garage and noticed the open booster vac line smoking, and then a few minutes later pouring fuel out. Somehow the fuel must have poured through the carb and down the manifold in the cylinders while the engine was off but the fuel pump still running.
BTW, that brake booster vacuum line in the rear exits the rear of the intake manifold, NOT the rear carb.
Pushed it back in the garage and will think on it and start fresh another day.
Time to go out and watch the super bowl with friends.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: Got JOB on February 02, 2014 - 04:46:05 pm
IN your pic the center carb vent looks connected to your valve cover breather. I have my center vented to the rear of the engine open and the air cleaner to the valve cover. Could you possibly pull fuel into the motor if the center float hung?
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: jimynick on February 02, 2014 - 04:50:53 pm
Tommy, were the cylinders that had fuel in them in the rear? Your description of the fuel pump being on and the fuel coming out the brake vacumn line sounds like it actually filled the cylinders and intake with fuel to the point that the  fuel ran into the vacumn line! Based on your story of how it happened, I wouldn't be surprised to find the float on the rear carb stuck down where it went, when you hammered it and it never came up, with the attending fuel pouring into the carb and through to the intake. Check your oil level too, since too much gas may have gotten through to the oil pan and be careful! With that much gas, everywhere, you're just a nice, fat MSD spark away from a nasty fire possibility. You can also take that back carb right off, plug the line and cover the opening to see if the other two are doing alright, since it'll run fine on the centre carb only. Good luck and don't have TOO many pints during the game!  :cheers:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: brads70 on February 02, 2014 - 06:17:23 pm
At the very least I'd be changing the oil.  Like already mentioned a compression check with all the plugs out would be a good idea too? Hope it Ok and nothing major !
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: bandt on February 02, 2014 - 08:34:16 pm
Sounds like you have a stuck float. Stops the needle from seating and dumping fuel in.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: 72cudamaan on February 02, 2014 - 11:30:03 pm
I'd be awfully careful about cranking the engine over as well. That much fuel could have hydro locked a cylinder. Then you have a real big problem.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: cudabob496 on February 03, 2014 - 09:45:11 am
I'd be awfully careful about cranking the engine over as well. That much fuel could have hydro locked a cylinder. Then you have a real big problem.

what does hydro locked a cylinder mean?
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: spamtank on February 03, 2014 - 10:25:11 am
Normally, you are compressing an air fuel gaseous mixture which is compressible.  Liquid fuel is incompressible, and the pressure that builds up is tremendous when the piston tries to compress the volume by a ratio of 10 to 1.  This results in bad things happening. 

Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 03, 2014 - 04:36:09 pm
after sleeping on it I think one of the carbs (probably the front because some fuel did come out when I removed that sight plug) was stuck, and the electric pump just filled the cylinders and then then the intake manifold and into the vacuum line to the brake booster, and probably some if not a bunch into the crankcase.
Correct me if Im wrong but what I will do next is remove all spark plugs, drain the oil, try to suck any fuel out the brake booster with a tube, and then put some cheap oil in the engine, and then turn the engine over a few times without plugs (and maybe check compression while Im at it) with the ignition disconnected and electric fuel pump off to circulate a little oil with some flushing action. Then put plugs back in, reconnect everything and try to start it up. And VERY soon after change the oil again.
Of course, I need to also check and repair the carbs.
Sound OK?

PS
What does holly charge for their six pack rebuild/restore service?
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: Chryco Psycho on February 03, 2014 - 05:03:06 pm
pull all the plugs , bump the engine over slowly , get all of the fuel possible out of the cylinders , after most of the fuel is out you can crank it over to get the rest out , change the oil , wash the plugs off with brake clean or replace them then you can get after the carbs & clean the needle & seats out & get the float levels set
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: erat340 on February 03, 2014 - 05:16:35 pm
Perhaps do this , carefully. Pull all 3 sight plugs, key on (dont crank), momentarily! See if fuel starts to flood from any bowl--Key off.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 03, 2014 - 05:21:43 pm

Since the fuel doesn't do great things for cylinders I'd pull the plugs and add some oil to it so it's not just flushing out fuel.

But depending on how much fuel you are pumping out you will probably be okay.

B
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: cudabob496 on February 03, 2014 - 05:34:18 pm
Dang, seems like a good reason not to have an electric fuel pump??
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 03, 2014 - 10:10:24 pm
Thanks for the great advice. Will be picking up some new champion plugs (RJ12YC) and having a busy weekend.
Hopefully I didnt break or bend anything.  :banghead:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: Chryco Psycho on February 03, 2014 - 10:37:00 pm
if the motor locked up after it was running you should be OK typically the starter will nothave enough power to bend the valves or con rods but if the nmotor is locked up the cylinder have more then 90 cc of fuel in them && it will not compress liquid so it will be badly flooded , especially if it pushed fuel into the brake booster !!
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 04, 2014 - 04:32:53 pm
oh yeah,
probably at least a gallon of gas came out the uncapped opening in front of the booster.
Now Im trying to figure out how to get a micro fuel line down into the booster to try and get fuel out. Its probably full and maybe ruined.
Will be draining my oil tonight also.
PS
Just drained it and the first couple quarts were oil so I figured, ok, cool. and then a torrent of the lighter than oil fuel started gushing out. Easily more than a gallon, so far. Stuck the plug back in for now before it overflowed my 3 gallon oil bucket.
Checked the brake booster and it seems dry so I should be lucky there.

And another update, there was probably 2 gallons of fuel in the case, and then I pulled the front carburetor and will take a close look at it.
Will put some cheap oil in it and a quart of an engine "flush" oil, put the new plugs in it and run it lightly a few minutes and drain again and put the good oil back in.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: PlumCraZRT on February 06, 2014 - 02:50:29 am
Dang, seems like a good reason not to have an electric fuel pump??

Many people use the fuel pressure dummy (on/off) sensor connected to a relay to power the fuel pump.  You can't prime the fuel system, but the fuel will shutoff if the engine isn't running (or if you don't get oil pressure).
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tman on February 06, 2014 - 04:05:11 am
Is the fuel pressure regulated?  If its too high, it can create problems. 
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: Chryco Psycho on February 06, 2014 - 06:52:56 am
Rock Auto lists the 6 pack carb kits for $18 each but they are made by Standard , the genuine Holley kits are about the same price & I would recommend the Holley kits over Standard
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: cudabob496 on February 06, 2014 - 10:42:53 am
Many people use the fuel pressure dummy (on/off) sensor connected to a relay to power the fuel pump.  You can't prime the fuel system, but the fuel will shutoff if the engine isn't running (or if you don't get oil pressure).

Yes, best to employ "dummy" control mechanisms whenever possible!
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 06, 2014 - 01:48:19 pm

I'm still scratching my head over having a motor being over-rev'd and then the fuel pump just basically floods the bejesus out of the carbs.

So I guess after you let off at 60mph and 2 car lengths behind the car died? That kinda makes sense if that happened and then you had a stuck float.

What kind of fuel pump you running? Holley Red pump? Mallory 110?

As Cryco said I'd use the Holley rebuild kits and do them all at once.

B
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 06, 2014 - 04:19:53 pm
Im using a mallory pump, and yes when I just let off the gas the engine seemed like it was only running/loping on about 4 cylinders as I coasted home.
I read online more than once that even the holley kits typically have gaskets that have extra holes or sometimes you have to punch them yourself.
Never done a full rebuild on any carb other than for a small engine (lawnmower/trimmers)
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 06, 2014 - 04:32:47 pm

Tommy

You will find they are pretty straight forward. If you have any questions please post up pics and ask any questions I and others will gladly help you out.

 :2thumbs:
B
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 06, 2014 - 08:26:31 pm
I have all 3 carbs sitting on my workbench and have the float bowls pulled. Everything looks fairly clean...no gunk or varnish.
Local parts stores dont have the rebuild kit so now looking online.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 06, 2014 - 09:05:03 pm
I would clean everything and

1) replace the needle and seats
2) change out the gaskets
3) ensure no jets are clogged
4) Check the squiters for blockage
5) check the vacuum diaphrams and check balls if you have them

Put them back together and make sure there are no vacuum leaks and no binding in the linkages

B
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: jimynick on February 06, 2014 - 10:41:26 pm
The most important part is checking the float height and operation. There's usually a paper float height gauge in the carb kit; read the instruction sheet that also usually comes with it and make sure the floats move easily through their range of movement with the attendant moving of the needles in and out of their seats. A fuel pressure gauge would be a good investment and plumb it into the feed line into the carbs. You don't want much more than 6-7psi or you can literally force the needle off the seat regardless of how good the carb is, so a regulator may also be req'd. Look at the silver lining to this Tommy; if you hadn't checked, you'd've totally ruined that engine very shortly AND now you don't need to worry about any nasty sludge buildup anymore!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 07, 2014 - 08:39:07 am
Thanks,
I use a regulator set about 6 psi (I also have a gauge just after the regulator).
I am shopping now for new oem type fuel lines since I kinked two of the links at the carb while removing them. The oem type are a PITA, but they look good and I like the stock look. It is a tribute car after all. Found several guys selling them on ebay, but... the rebuild kits are hard to find. I am looking for Holley part # 3-396 or 37-396.

I noticed my inboard list # is 4670 (it also has 2360 stamped next to it), which according to a model # list I found is for a 1971 440 auto trans flowing 355 cfm. Wish I had the manual version (#4669) but I cant imagine there's much difference.

What are the separate part #s for the inboard (1) and outboard (2) carbs?
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 07, 2014 - 05:58:57 pm
I stopped by NAPA and I ordered part # 2-5529 which appears to be the right set, but for $37 it probably wont be.
Ill pick it up tomorrow and start comparing the parts, though OI have no idea the existing gaskets are correct. Its not like my carbs were running perfectly. They were very rich. Idled ok, but always a cloud of smoke when I punched it.
Any suggestions as to power valve and jet sizes?
Currently running jets at 80 and power valve is either 8 or 8.5
Jets in the promax equipped outboards are 86

Ok, now I need to know how to remove the floats. I unscrewed the two hinge screws but it wont come out. Is there a hinge pin hidden back there?
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 07, 2014 - 07:14:43 pm
Typically there are four bolts in the corners that need to be taken out to remove the float bowl.

As for your power valve size should be half your max idle vacuum - so if you are pulling 13" then you can get away with a 6.5 power valve.

I'd check your jet sizes which seem to be maybe a bit high as well.

Here is some more reading:
How it works:
The power valve opens at low vacuum, such as at wide open throttle, and directs more fuel into the main power circuit. The valve itself is a small rubber diaphragm with a small coil spring. When opened, it allows fuel to flow through a calibrated opening in the metering block called the power valve channel restrictor. This restrictor determines the amount of additional fuel delivered to the engine.

Problems:
The incorrect size power valve, or a blown out power valve can cause problems such as poor fuel economy, black smoke emanating from your exhaust, dark or fouling spark plugs and a poor idle. If you suspect that your carburetor has a blown-out power valve, you can perform this simple test.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 07, 2014 - 07:26:27 pm

Tommy

I found this on napaonline:
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Carburetor-Kit/_/R-CRB25529_0186023125 (http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Carburetor-Kit/_/R-CRB25529_0186023125)

and I believe this is the instruction set for your carb:
http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/1787686pdf? (http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/1787686pdf?)$PDF$

It doesn't say what the contents are so you will have to tell us what power valve and jets you got with it.

B
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 07, 2014 - 07:38:05 pm
Tommy

I found this on napaonline:
[url]http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Carburetor-Kit/_/R-CRB25529_0186023125[/url] ([url]http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Carburetor-Kit/_/R-CRB25529_0186023125[/url])

and I believe this is the instruction set for your carb:
[url]http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/1787686pdf?[/url] ([url]http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/1787686pdf?[/url])$PDF$

B


Yep,
Thats the exact kit I ordered and will have tomorrow. Seems most run a 6.5 power valve, and jets maybe 66 or 68.
I talked with the prior owner about those sizes and he said those were the sizes they needed to get it to run well.  :dunno: :clueless:
I have no idea what vacuum Im running. Where is that measured at?
And should I even need to remove the float. I cant get at the pin but if its this hard to remove it must be a ***** to get that pin and spring back in there behind the float.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 07, 2014 - 07:44:16 pm

You can measure the vacuum from the manifold or from the base of one of your carbs.

Jets seem close but will have to investigate further to see if you need to bump them up/down. I'm a little confused on the pin you are talking about - how bout a pic?. I would remove the float bowl so you can see the float and replace the gasket. As well there are directions in the prior post on how to set the needle and seat so you are close. Once you have the fuel hooked up again, you can check the site plug to see if the fuel level is just below it otherwise you will need a small adjustment on the needle and seat.

Hope that helps,
Bryan
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 07, 2014 - 08:00:00 pm
Im referring to the actual float itself. The bowl and the carbs are already almost totally dismantled.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 07, 2014 - 08:31:34 pm

Gotcha - yeah no need to remove the float unless it's damaged.

 :2thumbs:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 07, 2014 - 08:42:24 pm
or just to check for proper operation. The floats seem to operate ok, but the reason Im rebuilding the carbs in the first place was because my engine was totally flooded. One or more of the three inlet valves failed to shut

and another thing, how many questions do I get?  :bigsmile:
A few more:
After studying the exploded diagrams and browsing ebays offerings, I realize none of my 3 fuel inlets contained the cylindrical filters and springs? like these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Six-Pack-Fuel-Bowl-Fittings-Bronze-Filters-/291030961734?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43c2cc0e46&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Six-Pack-Fuel-Bowl-Fittings-Bronze-Filters-/291030961734?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43c2cc0e46&vxp=mtr)
 Are they needed? Im thinking the lack of those bronze filters may have at least contributed to my problem. They seem like a last line of defense against any small bits of debris.
And if I have to pull this whole setup a few more times changing jets, etc, I will probably ruin my new set of $45 fuel lines, so I may put together a temporary rubber line setup until I have everything running just right.


PS
figured out how to get the floats out. Need to wear my "reading" glasses more often.  :banghead:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: Chryco Psycho on February 08, 2014 - 08:57:26 am
once you remove the needle & seat by unthreading it from the top of the carb the float & pivot pin should slide right out , Make sure you match up the gaskets as you change them , the Holley kits will have different choices for base gaskets & maybe metering block gaskets as well .
 When removing the carbs work from the back , the rear is the last carb to install & the first to come off .
  I am not sure the bronze filter help or hurt .
 Jetting around 64 center & 80 outboards seem to be about right , 6.5 powervalve should be normal unless the cam is more aggressive , the PV should be at least 1.5" below the manifold vacuum reading at idle in gear if auto
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 08, 2014 - 02:21:51 pm

If you are worried about fuel debris you could filter before the carbs. i doubt it was a lack of those bronze filters.

But I do haveto ask when the problem occured how full was your tank?

B
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 08, 2014 - 03:18:52 pm
Thanks Chryco, my existing jets are big at 80 inboard, 86 outboard, but I will start with your suggestion.
The build is mild, close to stock but with headers and 3" exhaust. Also, my choke is disconnected and I will keep it that way.
The fuel tank had about 1/8 (I think) when it happened.
Its hard to tell with the gauge not being the most accurate.

Just waiting on glass sight plugs, fuel lines and bronze filters, then have to pick up a few jets and I should be ready to start reassembling.
I will use my old fuel lines to get them tuned right, and when I know everything is working well will put the new lines on.
I'm thinking it will be best to get the entire fuel line assembly put together on the bench, carefully using teflon on the threads, and then installing the whole assembly as one unit.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 09, 2014 - 11:45:53 am
HP
You have a six pack on your 440?
What jets are you running?
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: cudabob496 on February 09, 2014 - 04:04:18 pm
just for info, and I don't have a six pack, but on my 496 the jets on my Holley 850 DP,
are 78/84, and that's dialed in with an AFR meter. Engine should be over 600 hp.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: cudabob496 on February 09, 2014 - 04:33:52 pm
I remember in 1970 I saw my first Cuda, a lime green one, jacked up with Cragers, pulled into
our 76 gas station.  Thought it was the most beautiful car I ever saw.  Had to wait
till 1991 to get one, though.

Anyway, beautiful green Cuda above!
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 10, 2014 - 12:31:20 pm
No I'm selling my 6 pack intake and I have a 4 barrel.

I'd say stay close to the stock jetting that came with the carbs. Unless you did something radical to the motor (cam, exhaust, etc) then I wouldn't worry about it.

I found this and if you search on R4670 you will see that the stock primary jet is a 62. Just food for thought.
http://www.holley.com/data/TechService/Technical/Carb%20Numerical%20Listing.pdf (http://www.holley.com/data/TechService/Technical/Carb%20Numerical%20Listing.pdf)

B


HP
You have a six pack on your 440?
What jets are you running?
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 10, 2014 - 09:14:51 pm
No I'm selling my 6 pack intake and I have a 4 barrel.

I'd say stay close to the stock jetting that came with the carbs. Unless you did something radical to the motor (cam, exhaust, etc) then I wouldn't worry about it.

I found this and if you search on R4670 you will see that the stock primary jet is a 62. Just food for thought.
[url]http://www.holley.com/data/TechService/Technical/Carb%20Numerical%20Listing.pdf[/url] ([url]http://www.holley.com/data/TechService/Technical/Carb%20Numerical%20Listing.pdf[/url])

B


Thanks again,
I think I have everything either on my work bench or on its way, except needles. The ones I have seem ok, and the rebuild kit comes with new needle seals, but shouldnt the needles be replaced also?
Even though Ill probably never need 90 percent of them, I broke down and bought a kit of jets from 65-82. It was the smallest and therefore the cheapest set I could find on ebay. So It looks like I will try 65s and 80s for the outboards, since I already have a pair of 80s from my inboard.
Might as well check my ignition system while the top of the motor is naked, so I picked up a timing light. 12/36 are the numbers I should expect there. Not going to fool with the advance. Its a great msd billet distributor and Im gonna assume the centrifugal was set up well.
I have been getting a little run on lately after turning off the key, and from what I understand it may be because the msd system is passing on a residual charge. The fix has something to do with the ballast resistor, which I disconnected years ago.

I HATE run on. Its pretty embarrassing when you pull into a cruise and turn off the key, only to have it choke itself to death over the next few moments. At least its not as bad as  the emission strangled 1974 350 camaro I had in high school (my first car). It was such a dog, it often took almost a minute to choke itself off. My buddies would laugh and laugh, but I was rarely amused.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: mopar jack on February 10, 2014 - 09:28:09 pm
Run on is very much like a diesel and doesn't need ignition. Winter grade gasoline seems to cause a lot of run on due to the increased vapor pressure needed for the cold atmosphere. I usually turn the car off with it in drive (auto) and that puts enough load on the motor to stop without run on. The factory added a solenoid to the throttle to solve this problem.

Jack
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 10, 2014 - 09:30:34 pm
I'd replace the needle and seats nyway so you can rule it out going forward.

Sounds like a plan for the jets, who recomenned 80's for the outboards?

Yeah it sounds like you might need some timing work to remedy that lovely dying cough when you shut her down. If you have the pro billet msd like mine you will have to set up springs for the mechanical advance otherwise you have a vacuum advance and nothing to worry about.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: cudabob496 on February 10, 2014 - 09:34:06 pm
I would get ocassional run ons, but now I have an on/off switch to my
MSD box, and when I flip that switch off, the engine quits immediately.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tman on February 10, 2014 - 09:38:43 pm
Could be other reasons for dieseling.  Here are some but you can look up other for solutions.  Switch for MSD is an easy one.  If its not that, then here are other things to do.

http://www.ehow.com/how_7798617_stop-car-dieseling.html (http://www.ehow.com/how_7798617_stop-car-dieseling.html)
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 10, 2014 - 10:04:49 pm
If I have been getting dieseling, everything Im doing will probably put a stop to it, including new plugs gaped at 48-50ish
The prior owner used jets of 80s inboard and 86s outboards so you could say it was running rich, and that may have contributed to my problems.
Chryco recommended 80s and I have read that recommendation elsewhere also for my setup.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: cudabob496 on February 10, 2014 - 10:15:54 pm
If I have been getting dieseling, everything Im doing will probably put a stop to it, including new plugs gaped at 48-50ish
The prior owner used jets of 80s inboard and 86s outboards so you could say it was running rich, and that may have contributed to my problems.
Chryco recommended 80s and I have read that recommendation elsewhere also for my setup.

try backing off the total timing a few degrees.  Too much advance can cause it.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 11, 2014 - 11:56:02 am

Good place to start but you may have to go lower on your jets depending on how your motor responds to the outboards.

If I have been getting dieseling, everything Im doing will probably put a stop to it, including new plugs gaped at 48-50ish
The prior owner used jets of 80s inboard and 86s outboards so you could say it was running rich, and that may have contributed to my problems.
Chryco recommended 80s and I have read that recommendation elsewhere also for my setup.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: cudabob496 on February 11, 2014 - 05:12:57 pm
Good place to start but you may have to go lower on your jets depending on how your motor responds to the outboards.

Seems like for tuning a 6 pak, an AFR meter is almost a must.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 11, 2014 - 09:33:30 pm
I installed a wideband gauge in my twin turbo stealth because it was absolutely necessary to properly and safely tune with an air/fuel controller, increased boost, etc, but I just dont want to go that route with the cuda.
Sure, an afr gauge would make it easier, but the old school methods work too. Not that I am any expert, far from it, but some of the best tuners consist of your ears and the seat of your pants.  :working: :burnout:  :cheers:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 15, 2014 - 05:28:54 pm
Finally got to putting the carbs back together after letting things soak in mineral spirits for the better part of a week.
Got the inboard put together with only a few minor issues.
Pulled apart the outboards and found a few things.

First, my front outboard has some minor damage to the outside front of the float bowl that could cause some sticking of the float, but it seems to operate freely. However, the dent made it very difficult to actually remove the float, so something is amiss there.

Also, my outboards have exposed idle needles, and one of the tips was broken off. At first of course I turned them in and found all four outboards out about 5/8 to 3/4 turn, but one of them the point stayed stuck in its hole, and I had to push it out from the throat.

Finally, my rebuild kit only came with one "110" fuel inlet needle valave, so I had to order two more for the outboards. I hope "110" is the correct size. My outboards werent labeled.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: spamtank on February 15, 2014 - 06:23:12 pm
This has been an interesting and informative thread.  Thanks Tommy!   :2thumbs:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: 4Cruizn on February 15, 2014 - 07:11:04 pm
This has been an interesting and informative thread.  Thanks Tommy!   :2thumbs:

I totally agree . . . Carbs are not my strong suit and I definitely learned a couple things in this thread!   :cheers:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- fuel issue?
Post by: cudabob496 on February 15, 2014 - 07:24:03 pm
from all I've read, .110 will be fine
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 15, 2014 - 11:02:35 pm
Ok, a few pictures.
First, the front outboard bowl with a dent in it.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/9569fde5-87cf-4e24-900e-bfe2daf35751.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/9569fde5-87cf-4e24-900e-bfe2daf35751.jpg.html)

And the inboard bowl with a temporary clear sight plug. Cost $4 each and should help with adjusting the float level.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Floatbowl.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Floatbowl.jpg.html)

Before and after shots of the choke shaft. It was a little bent, and I carefully straightened it using a small block of wood. My choke is disconnected though, so it is basically wired in the open position. I cleaned everything up best I reasonably could, but still very tarnished and stained.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/IMG_2295.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/IMG_2295.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/IMG_2297.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/IMG_2297.jpg.html)

The throttle plates, shaft and screws. Not exactly streamlined.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/IMG_2298.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/IMG_2298.jpg.html)

Picture of the inboard jets...for comparison,,, my prior .080 jet on the left (about as fat as a toothpick) and my new .066 jet (slightly larger than stock). By my calculation, the difference in size is .066" versus .093",  Pi- r- squared means the .080 flowed almost exactly TWICE as much fuel.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/IMG_2293.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/IMG_2293.jpg.html)

Why arent these needles replaceable??? Theyre plugged off at the top.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/IMG_2290.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/IMG_2290.jpg.html)

The broken needle I pulled out of my front outboard. Ordered a couple new ones off ebay today. Hopefully I picked the right type since these dont have any part numbers on them.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/IMG_2307.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/IMG_2307.jpg.html)

Pictures of meter block gaskets, existing blue one top left and the exact match upper right, but as with all these kits there are a bunch of additional gaskets. How do I know for sure the lower right gasket isnt the right one though. It has one extra hole which looks like it could provide a function, but  :clueless: :dunno: guess I have no choice but to use the exact match.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/IMG_2286.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/IMG_2286.jpg.html)

The fuel inlet needle and seat valves (old and new), both are .110.
I'm guessing this could have been my original problem. Notice the older type has a bigger plunger.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/IMG_2278.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/IMG_2278.jpg.html)

And finally, the finished inboard unit. Still ugly, but at least its cleaner.
For about $500 I guess I could get a brand new one, but for a total of about $140 in parts to do all three units, including all new connecting fuel lines, etc, it's worth a try.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/IMG_2302.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/IMG_2302.jpg.html)
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: jhaag on February 15, 2014 - 11:33:54 pm
You will be fine with .110 ns. if you can get them in stainless, a better option given the quality of fuel. I would replace that bowl if it were mine. Should be easy to find new or used. (unless you are #s matching) Also the outboard carbs should have had sealed idle screws. (At least my T/A did) Looks like somebody has really messed yours up. :2cents:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 16, 2014 - 12:15:10 am
I ordered two more .110s for the outboard carbs and I will be putting them together next weekend
Yeah, they arent pretty, but remember they are at least 43 years old, were last gone through about 10 years ago by the prior owner, and who knows how many hands theyve been wrenched with over the years..
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: cudabob496 on February 16, 2014 - 01:40:37 am
I installed the sight glasses, which are helpful, but I cannot get them out now, at least by unscrewing.
I think the plexiglass either swelled, or is fused to the bowl some other way.  I'll just have to remove bowl
and drill them out someday.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: cuda346pk on February 16, 2014 - 05:57:16 am
I had the clear plugs break and leak on mine. They were holley ones too.
Tommy, I have a broken carb that I replaced on mine. It is actually a 440 carb too. 71 I believe. I think the bowl is ok. The throttle plate is cracked. If u want to replace the one you have u are welcome to it.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: Chryco Psycho on February 16, 2014 - 07:10:46 am
The fuel bowls for the 6 pack are unique , I always had to order them direct from Holley or you can swap with the rear carb to hide the dent , the lower # carb goes to the front BTW
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: brads70 on February 16, 2014 - 08:01:10 am
I had the clear plugs break and leak on mine. They were holley ones too.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 :iagree:  Same here.( Don't leave them in) Tom did mention they were just temporary to set the level.  :2thumbs:
I'd add in to get a can of carb cleaners and really clean out the bleed holes( and all the other holes too?) to make sure they are not blocked. I've used an old toothbrush and the carb cleaner to clean everything up.
Looking great though Tom, good job! :2thumbs:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 16, 2014 - 09:31:07 am
Yep, carb cleaner and a tootbrush came in very handy. I dont have compressed air in my garage so using the cleaner to spray out the holes.
And yes I planned on swapping the float bowls front to rear. What do you mean lower # carb to the front?
You mean jetting?
All my outboard jets were at 86 BTW, and I plan to start with 80s initially, though I understand a perfect tune could easily end up with all different.
I dont expect to get them perfect, just hopefully close enough to idle well, and not blow clouds of gas when I punch it.  :bigsmile: :burnout:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: mopar jack on February 16, 2014 - 10:56:42 am
A good article on setting six packs. Long and a little confusing but a good place to start for jetting.


http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/fuel/7.html (http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/fuel/7.html)
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 16, 2014 - 11:48:31 am
A good article on setting six packs. Long and a little confusing but a good place to start for jetting.


[url]http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/fuel/7.html[/url] ([url]http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/fuel/7.html[/url])


Nice read, thank you.
Have to say with all the reading I have been doing the last week I know 10 times more about six pack carb tuning than before.

One thing Im not planning on doing is replacing my vacuum pod diaphragms. They seem to be working and it looks like they are an easy replacement with the carbs on the car if I decide or need to do them later.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 16, 2014 - 02:05:53 pm
It looks like you are on the right track. If your vacuum diaphrams will hold under suction no need to replace them.

Pretty big difference in jets eh? A good starting point for idle mixture screws is quite a bit different from what I'm used to with that article but you can put a vacuum guage and keep backing them out till you get the highest reading.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: cuda346pk on February 17, 2014 - 04:11:13 am
The fuel bowls for the 6 pack are unique , I always had to order them direct from Holley or you can swap with the rear carb to hide the dent , the lower # carb goes to the front BTW

This is a 6 pack carb. It was on mine when I got it. I replaced it when I found a crack at throttle shaft. But if the dent isn't bad enough to cause a problem, swapping it to the rear works too.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 18, 2014 - 09:48:48 pm
I had to break the black foam float to get it out. The dented bowl pinched the slot for the float hinge pin just enough to crimp it in. It also seemed to operate stiffly, so I had to file the slot and then order another float.

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Plymouth%20repairs/IMG_2334.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Plymouth%20repairs/IMG_2334.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Plymouth%20repairs/IMG_2337.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Plymouth%20repairs/IMG_2337.jpg.html)
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: jimynick on February 18, 2014 - 11:44:21 pm
Is that a false economy Tommy? Having filled your engine once, do you really want to give that float bowl a second chance? Why not take advantage of the gentleman's offer of his non-dented used one and sleep better at night? Just my  :2cents: and the desire to not see you wreck an expensive engine.  :dunno:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tman on February 18, 2014 - 11:49:59 pm
Yes, that front bowl got to go..............................
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 19, 2014 - 01:10:05 pm

It's up to Tommy but if it operates normally now I don't see a problem. Maybe he wants to keep the # parts together.

The one main reason I would change out that bowl if you had leakage problems because of the deformation causing it to leak at the gaskets.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tman on February 19, 2014 - 02:10:53 pm
Deformation could have caused the float to operate incorrectly since he had a hell of time removing the float.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on February 19, 2014 - 02:36:37 pm

Let's see what Tommy says after he mounts the new float bowl eh?

 :popcorn:

Deformation could have caused the float to operate incorrectly since he had a hell of time removing the float.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 19, 2014 - 04:39:53 pm
I really think the bowl will operate fine. The dent wont affect the gasket seal to the body, and it only needed a light filing and seems to operate freely now. Besides, I do want to keep my "original" things together if possible.
Thanks very much for the offer though David. I forgot to mention that before.  :cheers:

Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on February 28, 2014 - 05:33:40 pm
I have taken David up on his offer of a replacement float bowl.
Seems not only is there now an invisible crack somewhere near that dent, but that ouboard carb is STILL pouring fuel down the throat. I dont understand it. The float operates freely and the new inlet valve SEEMS to operate properly.
I have pulled and dismantled that float bowl again (which I now have on the rear) and I guess its just replacement time. :dunno:

Thanks David  :cheers:

and boy, getting those oem type fuel lines to line up PERFECTLY and NOT LEAK. Thats been a learning experience. That, and waiting for all the different rebuild parts to arrive from different sources all over the country.  :pullinghair:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: swede-cuda on March 01, 2014 - 01:41:54 pm
 :wave:
I have taken David up on his offer of a replacement float bowl.
Seems not only is there now an invisible crack somewhere near that dent, but that ouboard carb is STILL pouring fuel down the throat. I dont understand it. The float operates freely and the new inlet valve SEEMS to operate properly.
I have pulled and dismantled that float bowl again (which I now have on the rear) and I guess its just replacement time. :dunno:

Thanks David  :cheers:

and boy, getting those oem type fuel lines to line up PERFECTLY and NOT LEAK. Thats been a learning experience. That, and waiting for all the different rebuild parts to arrive from different sources all over the country.  :pullinghair:                                                                                                                                                                                                                  :wave:hej. in the pics it looks like theres a brass plug in the meteringblock? instead of powervalve. just to keep you alert.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 01, 2014 - 03:14:07 pm
 :wave: :cheers: :working:

After very closely examining the bowl, I think its possible there is a leak between the fuel inlet (the cylinder the bronze filter sits in) and the bowl, circumventing the inlet valve. There is only a couple millimeters of material there and it wouldnt take much to cause a leak through, even under only 5-6 pounds pressure. And, it could be right in the area I filed on in that slot  :banghead: :-[
Is the bowl made of aluminum alloy, with maybe zinc? Thats what can corrode. I have a little gray corrosion in a couple spots here and there.
Seen the 71 outboards "new" for as little as about $399. May eventually have to go that route, but hopefully not too soon.
I have other things I would rather be spending my money on, like a 5 speed and a digital classic am-fm radio!
You know. Important things!! :money: :roflsmiley:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: Chryco Psycho on March 01, 2014 - 03:19:58 pm
you could fill a crack with epoxy like JB weld
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tman on March 01, 2014 - 03:23:23 pm
CP does have a solution there, but I think just get rid of the damaged bowl and replace it.  Looks like you have one coming in that will more than likely solve the problem.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 01, 2014 - 03:27:30 pm
Is that a false economy Tommy? Having filled your engine once, do you really want to give that float bowl a second chance? Why not take advantage of the gentleman's offer of his non-dented used one and sleep better at night? Just my  :2cents: and the desire to not see you wreck an expensive engine.  :dunno:


Jimynick,
Your 2 cents are worth at least two hundred bucks right about now.  :bigsmile:

And I did touch up what I thought was a crack with JB Weld just as you suggest Chryco. Waited a day for it to set up nice and hard, then put the bowl on next night, and after chasing a couple fuel line leaks, that same carb started pouring fuel down the throat. Took me at least 30 seconds to shut it off, and in the meantime it sounded like a small waterfall. I have NOT yet cranked on the motor. Only turned on the electric fuel pump. It is pushing about 6 pounds pressure.
Hopefully I didnt flood any cylinders but I might have.

Here is the spot I think its leaking through now, and not really easily repairable. Not worth messing with anyway.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackfloatnotchrepair.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackfloatnotchrepair.jpg.html)

Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 04, 2014 - 09:22:19 pm
Received the replacement float bowl from David yesterday, and got it all running tonight.
Now for the tuning. Running about 15 inches vacuum at 900 rpm. Timing at about 14 degrees.
The jetting is 66 center and 80s outer, with I think a 7.5 PV.
I noticed playing with the throttle shaft idle screw doesnt seem to do much. I have to force the shaft to get the idle down below 1000 rpm. Maybe the shaft is worn or still gunked up. :dunno:
Twisting the main idle screws back and forth up to 1/8 turn each didnt do much of anything to my 15inch vacuum.
Still seems to be running rich, based on my nose.
BTW the secondaries are still disconnected.
And on another note, the glass sight plugs arent a big help IMO. I had two of them break off. I think because I hand tightened them too hard? Had to pull bowls in order to push out the threaded part and any shards inside the bowl.  :grinno:

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackvacuum.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackvacuum.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Holleyglasssightplugs.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Holleyglasssightplugs.jpg.html)
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on March 04, 2014 - 10:22:06 pm
If your secondaries are disconnected and you believe its still rich you can jet down. As for your PV you are spot on for your vacuum reading.

Btw, what color is your accelerator pump cam?

Bryan
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: Chryco Psycho on March 04, 2014 - 10:23:00 pm
So you may have an air leak or the outboard carbs are open a little so the idle will not drop down , 15" of vacuum is good but what will it drop to in gear ?
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: mopar jack on March 05, 2014 - 11:11:23 am
Do you have adjustable metering plate kits in the front and rear carbs? I found that the AED jet plates can interfere with the floats and that you may have to file a spot in the float to clear the jets. This could cause your problem with flooding.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 05, 2014 - 09:30:05 pm
My accelerator pump cam is either black or dark green. I cant tell since its pretty hard to see with the carb mounted.
My secondaries have promax metering plates and I checked for clearance before I reinstalled the bowls since it did look close but there are at least a few mm's clearance.

Chryco, how can I tell if the secondaries are a little open?
 
I noticed my fuel pressure is at 7 psi, and when I tried to dial it down to 6, cranking the regulator up to 3 full turns back did nothing. Still at 7 psi, if not a fraction more.  :clueless:
Turning CW here, and CCW there, it seems like no matter what I do on the carb, nothing seems to have any effect on anything. Either my car is a total dolt, or I am, or both.
At least its running, but still rich, and seemingly no different than before. Not that I was expecting a different car, but I was expecting to be able to dial things in a little better.
A big clue might be I am STILL suffering run-on (dieseling). Could this be because my throttle blades are not closing completely? Remember, now at about 1000 rpm idle, I can force the main throttle a LITTLE bit more to drop the idle to about 600-700 rpm, so I know its not closing all the way on its own.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: jhaag on March 05, 2014 - 11:44:31 pm
yes it is dieseling because the throttle blades are open too far. Your six pak should probably have a solenoid on it to prevent this. my 340 t/a did. not sure about the outboard carbs on your set up, but check this. holley four barrels have adjustable secondary idle stops. your outboard carbs may have them as well. look on the passenger side where the vacuum diaphragm attaches to the throttle shaft. There is a set screw only adjustable from the bottom of the carb. (have to take them off and adjust with a small screwdriver) any way given all the issues you have had with someone before you screwing with these carbs, maybe someone has messed there as well.  :dunno: As for your pressure regulator, I'd say time to replace it. It obviously is not working.  :2cents:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: cudabob496 on March 06, 2014 - 04:45:30 am
Received the replacement float bowl from David yesterday, and got it all running tonight.
Now for the tuning. Running about 15 inches vacuum at 900 rpm. Timing at about 14 degrees.
The jetting is 66 center and 80s outer, with I think a 7.5 PV.
I noticed playing with the throttle shaft idle screw doesnt seem to do much. I have to force the shaft to get the idle down below 1000 rpm. Maybe the shaft is worn or still gunked up. :dunno:
Twisting the main idle screws back and forth up to 1/8 turn each didnt do much of anything to my 15inch vacuum.
Still seems to be running rich, based on my nose.
BTW the secondaries are still disconnected.
And on another note, the glass sight plugs arent a big help IMO. I had two of them break off. I think because I hand tightened them too hard? Had to pull bowls in order to push out the threaded part and any shards inside the bowl.  :grinno:

Do you have an AFR meter? Seems it would be very helpful, especially for a 6-pack!
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 06, 2014 - 09:50:26 pm
Pretty sure the accelerator pump cam is dark green. Going to try to work on getting the main throttle shaft to close further, and dont want to use an idle solenoid if I dont have to. Frankly if the main carb isnt working properly and cant be adjusted to run properly for whatever reason I might as well bite the bullet and just buy a new center replacement.
Also will look closer at the secondary throttle shafts.

Dont want to add an afr gauge either. Welding bungs and extra $$ shouldnt be necessary and though they might make the job easier I just dont want to go there. Rather spend $500 on a new carb than $200 on bungs and a gauge.
Dont get me wrong, I appreciate the suggestions.  :2thumbs:

One more thing I remembered. The prior owner had kept small copper wires stuffed down the two outer (larger) idle air bleeds. I removed those years ago.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: cudabob496 on March 06, 2014 - 10:01:18 pm
Pretty sure the accelerator pump cam is dark green. Going to try to work on getting the main throttle shaft to close further, and dont want to use an idle solenoid if I dont have to. Frankly if the main carb isnt working properly and cant be adjusted to run properly for whatever reason I might as well bite the bullet and just buy a new center replacement.
Also will look closer at the secondary throttle shafts.

Dont want to add an afr gauge either. Welding bungs and extra $$ shouldnt be necessary and though they might make the job easier I just dont want to go there. Rather spend $500 on a new carb than $200 on bungs and a gauge.
Dont get me wrong, I appreciate the suggestions.  :2thumbs:

understand, but no welding is necessary. they have a clamp with a bung on it that attaches to your exhaust pipe.  Without an AFR meter, a person can be tuning a carb for a long time. Of course, I'm sure some like the challenge.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: Chryco Psycho on March 06, 2014 - 10:48:56 pm
If the linkage is connected it can hold the throttle open , there may also be screws from underneath to hold the throttle open on the outboard carbs so flip the carb & look for a set screw .
Adding wires into the bleeds can really help , with lower vacuum it can enhance the pull of fuel into the airstream , I have solved many tuning issues doing this
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tman on March 07, 2014 - 12:07:07 am
I can only say that this is good reading.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: HP_Cuda on March 07, 2014 - 12:47:03 pm

You would think that the larger air bleeds on the outside idle bleeds would make it run leaner than richer.

This makes me think since the prior guy modified the carb (hack) to try and get it to run correctly (richer) that I personally would tear down the carbs to find out what's in them. It seems to me that your 6 pack carb setup is definitely setup to run a lot more fuel than your motor can burn efficiently.

Here's an article that Cryco can get behind because it's written by Quickfuel:
http://www.quickfueltechnology.com/technical-info/carb-class-air-bleed-basics (http://www.quickfueltechnology.com/technical-info/carb-class-air-bleed-basics)
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 07, 2014 - 02:16:29 pm
Here is what the carb looked like 5 years ago. Those copper wires leaned things a little, and now it must be richer.
Just wish they were replaceable with different sizes.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackairbleeds.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackairbleeds.jpg.html)
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 07, 2014 - 02:33:03 pm
At this point this is where Im at:

1- its still smells like its running rich
2- still have run-on for a couple seconds after shutting it off
3- should I have removed and cleaned the throttle shafts? Are they lubed in any way?
4- maybe I need an idle solenoid to help but they have issues too and I dont want one more thing to act as a crutch for an old carburetor.
5- maybe Im wasting time on a carb that should just be retired?
 :horse:

and PS
the clear sight plugs are definitely for temporary use only. Mine started fogging up after only a few days.
And only need to screw them in hand tight. Easy does it, let the rubber gasket do the work. The glass threads will break off.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: Chryco Psycho on March 07, 2014 - 10:01:08 pm
I agree the wire works to richen the mix not lean it so with it out it should be leaner
Did you get it to idle down , idle speed will cause run on as will timing & mixture
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 08, 2014 - 12:07:00 am
Started it after getting home from work, and spent the next few hours literally screwing around with it tonight because my rear carb was flooding... turned out the inlet valve threads in the float body were stripped, and after removing that carb to replace the bowl I noticed this for the first time:
correct me if I'm wrong but I dont think those should be there  :clueless: :banghead: :banghead:
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpack340secondary.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpack340secondary.jpg.html)
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: cuda346pk on March 08, 2014 - 02:13:42 am
Well according to the Mopar 6 Pack handbook that little tab on the left side at about 7 o'clock was only used on the 340 carbs. You want the rest of that carb I sent you the bowl from. There is a crack in the base right at the hole for the throttle shaft but the body is good and is for a 440. If you take my old carb you will need to take both apart and use the base off yours since mine is cracked. Both of my 340 outboards and the 440 one I am offering has the plates drilled.
I am in the middle of re jetting mine too, I am using an AFR meter and it is still a pain. Started off with 64 inboard and 84 outboard per people at promax carbs. Way too rich, Gonna try the set of 62's inboard and 82's outboard as they are the smallest I have right now. It is confusing to me that both of our outboard metering plate main restrictions were .052" and we have both been recommended to go with #80-84 jets. Looking at Holley's chart the .052" should match up to a #52 or #53 jet. I must be reading something wrong

PS I bought the custom idle screws and adjusting tool from Six-Pack Solutions. I think it was on Moparts but I can find it for sure if you want. Basically he made allen head screws to replace the factory flat head ones and a long straight allen with a handle that has a flat side for counting turns and the ball end is extreme to allow you to adjust the rear ones on the car and it works fine.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 08, 2014 - 02:31:04 pm
good sleuthing David. The list # is 4790 which is for a 340. I didnt see that either.
I just finished putting another bowl back on it and the inlet needle valve must have stuck because 5 seconds after turning on the fuel pump, fuel came flowing out the top vent again.
Pulled that one off and the needle valve seems to stick like it has some debris down in it, and its a brand new valve!
I just put an old valve in it and will see how that one works. I swapped a new o-ring onto it.

Now I know I probably should just break down and get at least one new outboard, and maybe an inboard too.
I may just be chasing rabbits here.
Spent the morning replacing a window and door handle on my daughters camry, otherwise I would hopefully be driving it right now.
Actually, I did drive it a couple times around the block a few days ago, but Thursday night the rear carb waterfalled again. I dont know now if I can ever have peace of mind with this thing now. Even if I get it running, Im gonna be paranoid putting the filter and shaker back on top of it, much less starting it up with a closed hood.

But now.... to check what other differences there are between the 340 and 440 outboards.
Again  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 08, 2014 - 04:42:51 pm
David, once again, thanks for the offer, but right now I just want to think and figure out which way I want to go with this.
If I do decide to replace, I dont imagine the "new" or reproduction holley outboards have metering blocks in them.
How easy is it to swap metering blocks into them?
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: cuda346pk on March 08, 2014 - 08:30:33 pm
I bought 1 new outboard and the other 2 on mine are newer too. The outboards have the same metering plates the old ones did. I just swapped mine to the promax plates like you have. U can just swap yours over. I think the new carbs are almost just like the old ones other than different bowl screws float valve and inlet filter I think. according to an article i have from chrysler power the other difference between the 340 and 440 carbs are the kill bleeds for controlling the rpm the secondaries start to open, then the springs control how fast they open. The article says small blocks kill bleed is about .046" and big block is about .036"  says the bigger the kill bleeds the later the secondaries open.
I'm not sure where I found this article but try searching for January 1992 Chrysler Power article titled "installation and tuning of the six pak induction system" by Dr Jerry binder.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 08, 2014 - 10:00:25 pm
will try looking for that read.
Been looking at these ebay outboards. Guy says they have been sitting in their box for "decades" That may be a good or a bad thing.  :clueless:
Theyre for a 1970 but does it really matter if originality isnt important?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321338720222?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/321338720222?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: cuda346pk on March 09, 2014 - 12:23:07 am
I would think you will want to rebuild them as the gaskets and rubber may be dry rotted but maybe not since no fuel has been in them. They are newer style carbs since they have the 5/16 hex head screws instead of flat heads for the float bowls if that matters to you.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 09, 2014 - 11:43:20 am
I would think you will want to rebuild them as the gaskets and rubber may be dry rotted but maybe not since no fuel has been in them. They are newer style carbs since they have the 5/16 hex head screws instead of flat heads for the float bowls if that matters to you.

so the float bowl screws identify old/new style? Didnt know that. Guy claims new original stock. Dont know exactly what that means  :dunno:
Not caring about originality, do you know the pros and cons of old vs. new style?
Ive heard issues about the repros. Still made by Holley but not as good for some reason?
Screws or bolts doesnt really matter to me. I could always buy replacement bowl screws. Anything I should be aware of with the "new" six packs? For now I would just replace the outboards.... maybe down the road look to replace the main.

Kind of changing the subject here, but its kind of morphing into a "what should I do with my 40 year old carbs" topic.
If I do upgrade, maybe go new, swap the promax meter plates and sell my old stuff to someone who can use them for parts or try to bring them back to life?
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: cuda346pk on March 09, 2014 - 12:46:48 pm
so the float bowl screws identify old/new style? Didnt know that. Guy claims new original stock. Dont know exactly what that means  :dunno:
Not caring about originality, do you know the pros and cons of old vs. new style?
Ive heard issues about the repros. Still made by Holley but not as good for some reason?
Screws or bolts doesnt really matter to me. I could always buy replacement bowl screws. Anything I should be aware of with the "new" six packs? For now I would just replace the outboards.... maybe down the road look to replace the main.

Kind of changing the subject here, but its kind of morphing into a "what should I do with my 40 year old carbs" topic.
If I do upgrade, maybe go new, swap the promax meter plates and sell my old stuff to someone who can use them for parts or try to bring them back to life?

Not sure about any pro's or con's either way. You definitely would want to swap in your promax jet plates. I saw a thread on moparts I believe it was that said the venturi's are different sizes between the 340 and 440 carbs  :dunno: I will try to verify that later today as all mine are off the car right now.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tman on March 09, 2014 - 01:19:05 pm
If you wanted to, you could swap out your flat head float bowl screws.  Price for those ebay carbs seem reasonable, compared to new ones.  If it is what is claimed.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 09, 2014 - 02:30:21 pm
I think I made the decision to just pick up a pair of "new" outboards.
I think the best Ive seen for new on ebay is $380 each including shipping.
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 10, 2014 - 06:23:17 pm
Whats the difference between the 70 and 71 outboards?
If its essentially just the list numbers, and Im swapping out metering plates anyway, and I can get a slightly better deal on the 70's, should I? Cant imagine the engine will care or notice the difference.  :bigsmile:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: cuda346pk on March 12, 2014 - 07:42:19 pm
On the originals there was a change I think in 70 or 71 that changed the shape of the metering plates from 4 sided 6 sided by cutting the bottom 2 corners off. If it's not in the literature I sent u Tommy it's in the 6 pak handbook. I will look when I get home.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: cudabob496 on March 12, 2014 - 08:35:10 pm
Back in the sixties I wonder how guys kept these 6 pack setups running well?
Seems like a real challenge?
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: CudamanTom on March 12, 2014 - 08:45:06 pm
Back in the sixties I wonder how guys kept these 6 pack setups running well?
Seems like a real challenge?
I had a 1970 340 6 pack cuda for 6 years. Minor adjustments at most to keep her in tune. Not bad really.  :2thumbs:
But sometimes situations like what Tommy is facing can be a bear. A big bear. :pullinghair:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 12, 2014 - 09:13:25 pm
Anytime you have three times more of anything youre probably 3X more likely to have a problem or something break, so in that sense they may have more issues, but generally I think once you have them tuned, and dont mess with them, they should give years of good service.
And dont know about the sixties, but anything 40 years old will tend to have more problems too.  :bigsmile:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: Plum6Pak on March 12, 2014 - 09:44:17 pm
Sorry to hear, that's a sweet car! This won't help you solve the problem but if you haven't already, I'd get the oil changed and clear out any gas that may be in the cylinders and any other areas or you may end up with a more serious problem. Good luck!
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on March 12, 2014 - 10:42:25 pm
Sorry to hear, that's a sweet car! This won't help you solve the problem but if you haven't already, I'd get the oil changed and clear out any gas that may be in the cylinders and any other areas or you may end up with a more serious problem. Good luck!

Done that. Ran it around the block a few times too, and next time I get it running Ill change the oil again.
When I first changed it a few weeks ago about one gallon of gas was mixed with the oil.  :22yikes: :22yikes:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on April 03, 2014 - 10:15:30 pm
Been almost a month and now Im back. Spent some time on vacation out of the country, home repairs, etc, and decided to pick up a used full set of the correct coded carbs for a 71 off ebay. Spent the past few evenings pulling my existing carbs apart, AGAIN!, and removing the rebuild gaskets and parts to transfer them to the used set I picked up. I can do it now pretty easily without looking at diagrams or instructions, but.... its still time consuming... cleaning all the orifices, carefully scraping off and cleaning mating surfaces, etc. The tricky part is using the right gaskets. All I can do is use gaskets that are identical to the ones I remove, but that assumes of course the right ones were installed in the first place. Big assumption.
I am also scavenging a couple small parts off my original set to put them on the purchased set. A couple parts were missing, or didnt appear in as good a condition, but overall the new set appears in better condition.

Having a couple issues though. For instance the hot idle compensator cover didnt seem to fit tightly so I filed it down a little to make a tight fit. None of the exploded diagrams ANYWHERE show this rear part!  : Why?!
There was a FANTASTIC article about 6 pack rebuilding with great pictures I was using last month but the site has disappeared since? :clueless: The site was: Winged Warriors/National B body Owners Association.
swear: :swear:
Another issue... proper gaskets for the discharge nozzle screw... I think i got it right.

Here is a list of List/model numbers

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/6Packmodels.png) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/6Packmodels.png.html)
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: Chryco Psycho on April 03, 2014 - 10:48:40 pm
Not sure how to help from here  :dunno:
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: tommyg29 on April 04, 2014 - 11:46:19 am
Here are a few questions and pictures.
First, were the clutch head type screws used in 71?
See them on some accelerator pump covers and a few other places.

1st picture shows the accelerator pump covers. My old one on the left and I am sure it had the wrong spring. Probably a float spring. I am going with the one on the right.

2nd picture shows a bent choke cam stud. Actually, the stud was replaced by a bolt, and I have just straightened it out. I am keeping my choke disconnected anyway, locking the flap in wide open position.
3rd picture is my "new" inboard, showing the vent baffle which I didnt have before.
4th picture shows my old accelerator arm (broken off) and I didnt even know. I am transferring over the linkage and connector only to the new inboard. Was does the accelerator arm even do?

Hopefully I can make one good, well performing set when I am done, and will probably put all the remaining parts on ebay. I am sure many of the parts can still be used.
And David, I can send you back your float bowl if you like.
It just got to the point I didnt feel safe with the old set.

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackacceleratorpump.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackacceleratorpump.jpg.html)

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackchokelever.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackchokelever.jpg.html)

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackmeteringblock.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackmeteringblock.jpg.html)

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackacceleratorlever.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackacceleratorlever.jpg.html)
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: brads70 on April 04, 2014 - 01:52:00 pm
Here are a few questions and pictures.

Picture 71a shows the accelerator pump covers. My old one on the left and I am sure it had the wrong spring. Probably a float spring. I am going with the one on the right.



That spring (on the left) is for a vacuum secondary pot. Wrong spring
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 04, 2014 - 05:03:12 pm
Im guessing that stronger accelerator pump spring and the broken accelerator arm didnt help me any with my old setup.  :bigsmile:
Now Im on to the cam, Im going to go with the one on the right, after I clean it up a bit.
Hard to tell what color it is but I think its a decent fit for a very mild build like mine.
What do the more aggressive cams do anyways?

and... lube or grease any parts in particular, shaft journals, springs, hinges?

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackpumpcams.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackpumpcams.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: MEK-Dangerfield on April 04, 2014 - 05:56:37 pm

What do the more aggressive cams do anyways?


Chalk this one up into the art of tuning a Holley. I had to go with a more aggressive cam(blue) on my primaries to get it to put the accelerator pump shot in sooner because I had a bog.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Chryco Psycho on April 04, 2014 - 08:14:08 pm
Where to start
 The arm that is broken off is for the idle solinoid , it hold up the idle speed until the key is shut off to allow the throttle to drop full closed so it will not run on .
 The Vent on the bowl is 71
 the Clutch screws I am not sure about but there is a special driver to turn them .
 Brad is right on the spring , it is a vacuum spring , the one on the right is correct .
 The pump cam does 2 things [try this on an Eddy carb] , it controls how much fuel is pumped both / degree of movement & total volume , so all cams have 2 holes to position the cam differently , as the throttle is opened it may move a lot or very little instantly some engines need more immediate shot , some less depending on vacuum to draw in fuel from the venturi , position 1& 2 are different in immediate movement on every cam , also when you floor it you get a total volume of fuel so each cam will have a different total amount also . & cams , 2 positions each , 1 has 3 so 15 total possible cam choices ! The shooter is the second part of the equation , small adds fuel slower over a longer time , the larger ones are opposite , basically you want to go as close to the minimum  fuel delivery without a bog or losing response .
Title: Re: May have over revved the engine- Six Pack fuel issue?
Post by: cudabob496 on April 04, 2014 - 11:15:47 pm
Been almost a month and now Im back. Spent some time on vacation out of the country, home repairs, etc, and decided to pick up a used full set of the correct coded carbs for a 71 off ebay. Spent the past few evenings pulling my existing carbs apart, AGAIN!, and removing the rebuild gaskets and parts to transfer them to the used set I picked up. I can do it now pretty easily without looking at diagrams or instructions, but.... its still time consuming... cleaning all the orifices, carefully scraping off and cleaning mating surfaces, etc. The tricky part is using the right gaskets. All I can do is use gaskets that are identical to the ones I remove, but that assumes of course the right ones were installed in the first place. Big assumption.
I am also scavenging a couple small parts off my original set to put them on the purchased set. A couple parts were missing, or didnt appear in as good a condition, but overall the new set appears in better condition.

Having a couple issues though. For instance the hot idle compensator cover didnt seem to fit tightly so I filed it down a little to make a tight fit. None of the exploded diagrams ANYWHERE show this rear part!  : Why?!
There was a FANTASTIC article about 6 pack rebuilding with great pictures I was using last month but the site has disappeared since? :clueless: The site was: Winged Warriors/National B body Owners Association.
swear: :swear:
Another issue... proper gaskets for the discharge nozzle screw... I think i got it right.

Will post some more pictures soon.

I got a 72 service manual that has a whole section on maintaining/rebuilding/trouble shooting six packs, if you
have any specific questions.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: mopar jack on April 05, 2014 - 12:25:34 pm
The cam on the left looks like the green cam #290 in a Moroso kit. The right cam was pink #330. I used the green cam in a 3310 holley (780cfm) for years on a mild 440 wtih the 50cc accelerator pump. Worked great. Moroso has a list of specs for each cam.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on April 05, 2014 - 12:27:11 pm
To add to what Cryco said: think of it like the beginning of a good song.

First you have the accelerator pump shot which is determined by size of the reservoir (yes you can get a 50cc accelerator pump kit - yellow and brown cam - not saying get one) and the cam which determines the intensity and timing of the pumpshot, finishing off with the discharge nozzle size. Then you are off to main metering and hopefully off to secondary land.

What I'm getting at is that one portion can be setup correctly but then you could have a bog because another is setup incorrectly. They all need to flow together to have a sweet sounding Holley song.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 05, 2014 - 12:55:11 pm
Hmmmm, at the risk of displaying my ignorance, does that mean the light green is mild and the pink for a more radical build?

Thanks for all the good advice. I installed everything on the car this morning, fixed a small leak, then turned it over, and only one crank...dead battery. Will try again this afternoon.
I guess for guys that do this for a living, or many times over the years you can tune in your sleep, but seems to me there are so many adjustments, even with the advice, I may be shooting in the dark.
Until I hear someone say ouch. Then maybe Ill know Im close.... unless he moves  :bigsmile:

Regardless, Im sure all your help will get me close. Still confused about the cam though. If I can get it running (on the primary only) Ill let you know how it goes later.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 05, 2014 - 03:07:29 pm
So my stock volume is 25cc?
Discharge nozzle is #31, and switching back to my original cam #290
Just watched a Holley video description.
The sizes go from about 25 (25/1000) to about 52, and from their description the sizes below 30 are typically for "heavier" cars with highway gearing (ie. slower)
Their adjusting descriptions on the video are pretty clear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW6YGxVTW5Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW6YGxVTW5Y)

Thanks to everyone for the six pack seminars  :wave:
Still have a ways to go to tune this thing but hopefully Im getting there.
It did start a little while ago but coughed, spit and blew lots of smoke for all of the 30 seconds before I shut it down, so Im doing some more fiddling.
A few weeks ago when I got my "old" setup running again it seemed to run fine, but like I said, it also developed leaks here and there, and that scared me.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 05, 2014 - 03:48:08 pm
Running only on primary, coughing and spitting badly...not wanting to run. Brand new plugs are solid black.

Update....10 minutes later, forgot to uncap and connect the vacuum lines, running much better but still blowing lots of smoke.

Update again, an hour later because I ran out of gas. Put a couple gallons in and now runs like crap again! :clueless:
Think Ill take a break until tomorrow.
Have to watch my Gators playing in the Final 4 tonight.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: cuda346pk on April 05, 2014 - 10:58:37 pm
I am rejetting/tuning mine now too. Everything I have read and heard says to go richer on all the 6 pack setups. However just read last night in a Mopar Muscle feature on an AAR that had "MR 6 PACK" Bob Karakashian. He mentioned a tip - go lean. 80% of the time those 6 pack carbs are way too rich. We dialed back the jets 3 soz we s from stock. Don't know if he is referring to the big blocks too or not but on my SB it seems to be accurate. I started with 64 center jets and 84 outers. Way rich. Back to stock 62 in center and 82 outers. Still rich on AFR meter most of the time. Got a pair of 59's tonight and ordered 60s, 80 and 78s too. I may need to play with my cams too as it jumps real rich at any throttle touch. Are u running with the outers disconnected from vacuum right now to get your center dialed first? I have not been and not sure if disconnecting them or using black springs to hold em closed is the better way to do it.  Doesn't matter on the bowl I sent you but I may be interested that 340 outer you had for spare parts. If you need any weird parts for yours I do have the rest of that carb still.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 06, 2014 - 12:49:45 pm
I am rejetting/tuning mine now too. Everything I have read and heard says to go richer on all the 6 pack setups. However just read last night in a Mopar Muscle feature on an AAR that had "MR 6 PACK" Bob Karakashian. He mentioned a tip - go lean. 80% of the time those 6 pack carbs are way too rich. We dialed back the jets 3 soz we s from stock. Don't know if he is referring to the big blocks too or not but on my SB it seems to be accurate. I started with 64 center jets and 84 outers. Way rich. Back to stock 62 in center and 82 outers. Still rich on AFR meter most of the time. Got a pair of 59's tonight and ordered 60s, 80 and 78s too. I may need to play with my cams too as it jumps real rich at any throttle touch. Are u running with the outers disconnected from vacuum right now to get your center dialed first? I have not been and not sure if disconnecting them or using black springs to hold em closed is the better way to do it.  Doesn't matter on the bowl I sent you but I may be interested that 340 outer you had for spare parts. If you need any weird parts for yours I do have the rest of that carb still.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


Interesting,
Once I get everything sorted out I will organize what I have left over and let you know before I put anything on ebay.
I just installed 66s primary and 80s in the secondaries, and my "old" setup was 80s and 86s.
The way its running (or not running) makes me think the connection between the accelerator pump and the discharge nozzle is messed up. Maybe a gasket misaligned? Will take it apart again
I assume this is the route:

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpacksquirterpath.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpacksquirterpath.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpacksquirterport.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpacksquirterport.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on April 06, 2014 - 01:07:51 pm

Your last pic shows the squirter path.

Which cam are you running now and which position is it in?

Sounds like you are running pretty rich, is it smoking at idle or when you hit the gas?

B
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 06, 2014 - 02:59:41 pm
Cant really get it to idle. Running the 290 cam in position 1, but have the main all apart again. When I sprayed carb cleaner through the red circled hole in picture above, nothing came out the discharge nozzle.
I think the discharge nozzle isnt lining up perfectly, meaning maybe the inner holes arent lining up with the slots on either side of the threaded hole? When I tighten it down the nozzle tends to twist just slightly. Also, my upper washer, the flexible one against the nozzle set screw is beat up. May have to order a new kit just to get that stupid washer.
But that probably isnt the problem, or at least not the only problem.  Maybe its the main gasket? This time I used the bottom right one which has one extra hole.
I probably have a combination of issues so I will get another rebuild kit and try again.  :dupe: :pullinghair:

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackmeteringblockgaskets.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackmeteringblockgaskets.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: mopar jack on April 06, 2014 - 03:13:07 pm
There is a check valve below the discharge nozzle so a spray can may not squirt through without a little pressure.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 06, 2014 - 03:21:01 pm
There is a check valve below the discharge nozzle so a spray can may not squirt through without a little pressure.
May be, but I should get a new washer.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 06, 2014 - 03:49:05 pm
My car is a tribute, and the choke has always been disconnected (I live in warm weather), so absolute originality isnt that important, especially for something you cant really see.
Would it be practical to remove the entire choke assembly on the passenger side, and the flap, etc? It all just seems to get in the way.
Ok, an hour later and put it all back together, this time with my old blue gasket, which I know worked,  and this is where I sit, still not wanting to run or idle on its own, and constantly blowing lots of smoke. Sounds like its badly choking on itself. No difference. Funny thing is, before I started running out of gas yesterday, it did idle, not well, but it was a lot better than this.
Guess I'll try again next weekend.

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpacktuning.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpacktuning.jpg.html)

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackplug.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackplug.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Chryco Psycho on April 06, 2014 - 08:01:53 pm
 I wish I was closer , anyway yes you can remove the choke system , once you remove the squirter there is a pin under there that prevents back flow , it can get stuck , if it will not move with pump pressure or cleaner try tapping lightly on it it will come loose allowing fuel through .
 I would use 61 jets in the middle carb
idle can be affected by idle screws & bleeds also the powervalve but not by jetting
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 06, 2014 - 09:19:17 pm
Thanks. I am going to just remove the choke system then. Hardest part will be removing the two stripped little brass screws on the shaft. Probably just drill them out.
Dont think the pin is a problem. It seems to slide in and out freely.
Smallest jets I have in my kit are 65s so I will order a pair of 62s. Worth a try, though most other advice Ive read suggests 64-66 for a mild build like mine with headers and exhaust. Going leaner with 59-60 like Karakasian suggests sounds interesting but I would rather run rich than lean.
Like you said though I cant believe the jets are my problem. Its not just the idling, it really wont run at all without a lot of throttle, and then choking like its running on 4 cylinders. When I let off the gas it just coughs, spits and quits.
Ive removed these carbs at least 6 or 7 times, and I havent been able to even start tuning.  :dupe: :horse:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: CudamanTom on April 06, 2014 - 09:23:45 pm
Sorry I can't add anything to the fix but I just have to say this thread is very helpful from you and everyone's inputs on thoughts and ideas (for future troubleshooting in the future).  :2thumbs: :ylsuper:
I'll be installing my 6 pack sometime soon and so I keep focused on this thread to learn. And I'm learning every day.  :2thumbs:

I wish you luck for a quick and easy fix.  :bigsmile:

Is this thread a sticky? If not, it needs to be.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 06, 2014 - 09:33:28 pm
If it were a sticky I would link all the pictures to my photobucket account for more longevity.  :bigsmile:
This is a frustrating experience for a nubee like me
Done lots of reading, and Chryco your Holley carb tuning guide has been very helpful
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on April 06, 2014 - 09:37:22 pm
Seems that Holley suggest that the cam be in the #1 position for stock and your primary main jet should be a 62. As well, the power valve should be a 6.5 which is noted as stock.

I've yanked my choke off several times so it won't hurt you, can be a little pain though.

And here is a good read for tuning of the carb:
http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/199R7849-2rev1.pdf (http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/199R7849-2rev1.pdf)

Here is the trick kit for this carb which will have most of the goodies you will want:
http://www.holley.com/37-933.asp (http://www.holley.com/37-933.asp)

Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 06, 2014 - 09:58:21 pm
Thanks....more reading  :bigsmile:

Another question... will the fancier nozzle with the brass tips be any better. Its a couple bucks more.

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpacknozzles.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpacknozzles.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: CudamanTom on April 06, 2014 - 10:07:33 pm
If it were a sticky I would link all the pictures to my photobucket account for more longevity.  :bigsmile:
This is a frustrating experience for a nubee like me
Done lots of reading, and Chryco your Holley carb tuning guide has been very helpful

Sticky, Sticky, Sticky!!!  :2thumbs:

And I understand your frustration.  :pullinghair:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on April 06, 2014 - 10:15:36 pm

Up to you on the brass, don't think it should matter one way or the other.

Hope this works out for ya soon so you can rip some rubber off those rear tires!

 :burnout:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: jhaag on April 06, 2014 - 11:00:37 pm
the squirters with the nozzles just get the pump shot further into the airstream. a very minor consideration for you. your problem is not in the pump cam or  nozzle. it sounds like you are flooding out. Are you still running an electric pump? have you checked the pressure? running a regulator? (personally I would run a mechanical pump) somewhere for some reason you are running raw fuel into the motor. either overpowering the float/needle and seat, or an internal carb leak.  :2cents: don't know if a six pac will idle only on the center carb, but I would be tempted to block fuel to the front and rear carbs to eliminate them as the culprit.  :dunno: then work on each separately. your issues have gone on way too long. good luck
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on April 06, 2014 - 11:37:55 pm
but I would be tempted to block fuel to the front and rear carbs to eliminate them as the culprit.  :dunno: then work on each separately. your issues have gone on way too long. good luck

I was fixing to suggest this..also block off the air to those two carbs so it won't go lean. Get the center one to run cleanly, then add a second carb and get it to run as well.  this way, you might isolate the problem and you will know when it is fixed
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: jordan on April 07, 2014 - 12:26:15 am
when I put my engine on the dyno, my builder started with the center carb only to break it in.  He has block off plates for the outboard carbs.  Tuned in the center, then added the outboards after is ran fine.  I can't help in any other way since my car isn't finished and running yet.  My carbs were rebuilt by a local carb guy, and they were spot on with the jetting.  I tried going larger, but lost power.  Went back to where it was set when I got them. Bummer this is difficult.  Might just be easier to get a set of new carbs from Holley and sell your old ones.?? 
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 07, 2014 - 08:32:38 am
Some great ideas worth trying. Block off the two outboards and disconnect the fuel lines.
It definitely acts like the engine is flooding.
My fuel regulator is allowing about 7 pounds. Dont think the regulator is the issue because the floats seem to be keeping the level at the bottom of the site holes.  :dunno:

If I had known everything I would be going through 2 months ago I probably would have just bought new carbs and worked with them, but at least I've saved a couple bucks, and besides, look at all the fun I would have missed  :roflsmiley:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 07, 2014 - 05:44:26 pm
Got home from work and decided to remove them....had all three sitting on my workbench in 12 minutes.
Getting better. Now just going to fit some plywood blockoff plates to the secondaries on the manifold, cap off the two fuel outlets and try with just the inboard, but... later... have to attend a funeral first  :angelwings:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: erat340 on April 07, 2014 - 06:33:14 pm
Do you have a power valve? Could it be blown flooding, run rich , run like crap?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 07, 2014 - 09:20:30 pm
Do you have a power valve? Could it be blown flooding, run rich , run like crap?

Using a brand new power valve, the one from the kit. It isnt labeled but I assume its a 6.5
Any way to test it?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: CudamanTom on April 07, 2014 - 10:33:06 pm
Hey!!!
This is a sticky!!!  :2thumbs: :ylsuper: :bananasmi :cooldancing:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: jhaag on April 07, 2014 - 10:47:31 pm
power valve should be stamped either on the end of the plunger or on the side of the body. I test them by sucking on the diaphragm side. should pull the plunger in closing the fuel passage way
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on April 08, 2014 - 12:06:27 pm

Use the new stock 6.5 power valve you shouldn't have a problem at all.

Let us know how it goes plugging the secondaries.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 08, 2014 - 09:03:29 pm
Sticky status is  :cooldancing:
I will link all the pictures to photobucket, but Im far from done here.
Today I spent an hour or so blanking off the secondaries with plywood and took time to clean the manifold up a bit. Tomorrow will cap off the fuel lines and try to start it up with JUST the primary. More pictures to come.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 09, 2014 - 09:37:51 pm
Ready to try to start it up again tomorrow.
Got my two pack thing ready to go, but first I cleaned up the manifold.

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackblanks.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Sixpackblanks.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/SixpackManifold.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/SixpackManifold.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on April 09, 2014 - 09:40:00 pm
Dont forget to cap the secondary fuel lines!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 09, 2014 - 10:17:10 pm
Dont forget to cap the secondary fuel lines!
 :cheers:

Look carefully and you'll see they are capped, but had to tighten em down a couple times to make them leak free.

I get nervous about leaving the sight plugs off. What Ive been doing to check levels is running the electric pump, and then turning it off, and then removing the site plugs to check. If a little spills out, I figure that should be about right.
I guess a good place to start... each carb level set just barely leaking out.

btw, my squirter seems to work well. In fact it seems like a huge squirt out those little 31/1000 holes.

Will try starting it up tomorrow.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: cuda346pk on April 10, 2014 - 12:59:06 am
Tommy, isn't there an open vacuum hole under the choke vacuum diaphragm pod you removed? I cant tell for sure if you have it plugged or not. I left my vacuum pod in place and just removed the shaft, plate and linkage.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 10, 2014 - 06:56:53 pm
I looked and it didnt appear to be an open port. There are two screw holes to mount the pod but I used the two screws in them.
Anyways, just tried starting it up and it ran, when I gave it half throttle, but didnt want to climb above about 2000 rpm, again like it was suffocating, but it did run smoother this time. Still wouldnt idle, and still blowing smoke, but running far better than the other day.
I was originally running 80 jets, and now using 66s. Much closer to stock, but still blowing smoke, and not running  :pullinghair: :pullinghair:
Maybe go back and try 80s??  :dunno:

Heres a description of my build from the prior owner:

Tom:
'74 440 block + .030 stock 3.75 stroke (446")
'66 516 casting closed chamber heads
Stock cast crank
Stock LY rods
Closed chamber heads
Basic machine work was done on lower end by someone else, we bought it used. But, it has TRW forged flat tops, Federal bearings, stock replacement rings, etc. A basic rebuild with heavy pistons. Heads have 2.08/1.74 stainless performance valves. I pocket ported and cleaned them up, and gasket matched them, ending up around 245cfm @.550 intake, 175cfm @ .550 exh. Spring seats and guides cut for springs. They were also milled to get a true final compression of 10.5:1. Intake is a factory '70 iron 6bbl that was also port matched and cleaned up as best as I could reach, no plenum mods. Carbs are factory '70 six pack 4sp vacuum carbs, jetted and tuned. Cam is Crane hydraulic H-302-2, 302°, .504 lift, 232° @ .050 intake, 312°, .528 lift, 242° @ .050 exh. It runs 1 7/8 Hooker headers and MSD 6AL with a Pro Billet dist.
Chassis dyno results: 378hp @ 5300     470tq @ 3500

It's got 83° of overlap and will have a rough idle and the plugs may get fouled if it's idled a lot or driven lightly all the time. Last I checked it was around there too (170-175 IIRC). The reason the cylinder pressure is what it is is because the intake valve closing event officially seals the cylinder as the piston is moving up the bore. The larger the cam, the later that intake valve closes, so the lower the effective cylinder pressure will be with the same given mechanical static ratio.
I have a couple hints: Run the highest octane you can get (unleaded 93/94) and don't keep snapping the throttle at idle or pumping too much while it's warming up. It's never going to idle perfectly or smell clean at idle but it's not bad and you could always set it a little faster idle speed to help that. You can also try going with a higher heat range plug too.""
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on April 10, 2014 - 07:29:03 pm
I am sure you have verified that the timing advance is performing properly.

You said it was blowing smoke which I take to be rich, black smoke.  Don't see any reason to go to big jets until you can get it to run properly when standing still.  I would not think it was a big air leak-again because it is blowing black? smoke out the tail pipes.

Does it make any difference if you open the throttle very slowly as opposed to blipping it quickly?

When you open the throttle and it sprays an accelerator pump shot, does it stop as it should or does fuel continue to come out after the initial shot-looking into the carb while running, of course :)

I am never afraid to do dumb stuff when I am lost...so I would probably remove the center carb and bolt on one of the end carbs and see what it did when I cranked it up and "winged" the throttle.

I did not read the entire thread.  Were these new carbs, or ones you picked up?  I am wondering if there is a warp allowing excessive fuel to be sucked into the engine....
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 10, 2014 - 07:54:48 pm
I quit for the night. Too frustrated, but its blowing mostly whitish smoke...hard to tell, but I dont think I have a head gasket issue.
Think?? :dunno:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on April 10, 2014 - 08:34:28 pm
Definitely not rich...but white can be from coolant in the combustion chamber.....is your coolant level dropping?  Any signs of coolant when you pull the plugs?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on April 10, 2014 - 09:46:16 pm
Any water/coolant in the oil?

It will look foamy.

Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on April 10, 2014 - 10:08:47 pm
Like a bad milkshake. Not necessary to have water in the oil , though. Depends on where it blew. If it blows between cylinders it will run as you describe

Steve

Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 10, 2014 - 10:13:48 pm
Coolant is still green but need to flush it soon anyway.
Its hard for me to tell what color the smoke was but it seemed light color. Definitely not black though. In fact I dont think its ever blown black, though maybe very light gray.
I really dont think its coolant, and I definitely dont want to think that  :bricks1:

Now, if it blew between cylinders I imagine this would mostly mean a loss of compression? That would make some sense. Yesterday I tried starting it and it turned over a few times and then locked. The battery was at 12.5 volts so I figured maybe dead battery again, so I charged it up overnight to 13.6 volts, and turned it over and it seemed to lock again. I pulled 3 or 4 "easy" plugs just in case this evening before trying again. Didnt observe anything much draining out of any plug holes, but one of the plugs was definitely wet with that I thought was gas. Anyway, then put the plugs back in and tried again and this time it cranked for a few moments and finally spit to life, and after a few more moments it started running somewhat smoothly, but didnt want to go more than about 2000 rpm, and after about 30 seconds I let off and tried to let it idle, but it wanted to quit, so I just let it.  :violin:

Guess I should try to check compression this weekend. Obviously I wont be checking on a warm engine, but I will install the gauge and crank it over a few moments each cylinder. Whats the easiest and safest ways to disconnect ignition and cutoff fuel for the check?

And question 2: is the accelerator pump supposed to be squirting immediately and each time the throttle is opened?
I never really observed its operation before but it sure squirts a larger stream than I would have thought.
I guess under normal operation with my mild pump cam, it doesnt squirt its maximum potential amount, and closes off quickly?


Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Chryco Psycho on April 10, 2014 - 10:20:18 pm
I would use 61 or 62 jets , black smoke is fuel , yes the squirter should have instant fuel shot inot he carb every time the throttle is moved , hydraulic locking the engine could cause a head gasket failure , a cooling system pressure test would quickly determine if there is a leak
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 10, 2014 - 10:36:53 pm
I would use 61 or 62 jets , black smoke is fuel , yes the squirter should have instant fuel shot inot he carb every time the throttle is moved , hydraulic locking the engine could cause a head gasket failure , a cooling system pressure test would quickly determine if there is a leak

even between cylinders?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on April 10, 2014 - 11:06:52 pm
depends if it blew at a coolant hole...seeing that you are seeing what might be white smoke...then I would think it would show it...if the white smoke is from coolant in the exhaust...if blown badly around a coolant hole, then it might be pushing water out of the radiator at higher rpms....

Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tman on April 10, 2014 - 11:31:31 pm
Sounds like head gasket issue.  If its white, its steam, except for early morning cold. 
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 11, 2014 - 07:27:11 am
Dont know what else I can do with the carb, so I will check compression next and see how much further I go down the rabbit hole.
Coolant looks normal, but we'll see.
If its a head gasket, this thread will go on hiatus for a little.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: cuda346pk on April 11, 2014 - 09:25:36 am
Tommy, check the center of the 3 holes next to the vacuum pod mounting screws. It looks like it has a gold ball maybe pressed in sealing it but allowing the vacuum advance port to still breathe. I don't think it is your problem but I left my pod on cause I did not want to permanently alter the carb by driving in the lead ball supplied with the manual choke kit I tried to use. You are probably on the right track unfortunately, either try a coolant pressure tester or a leak down test on each cylinder with the radiator cap loose, just loose cause if it is a good leak it will blow coolant everywhere from the top of the radiator, guess how I know this  :banghead:
Bummer you are still having trouble but I know how you feel. Always something everytime I turn around too. Night before last while test driving from carb tuning I had a valve stem go to crap on me and lost pressure on a front tire quickly at about 80 mph. Chewed up the sidewall pretty good. Getting 2 new front tires today  :money:
My carbs are currently running 62 center (stock) and 82 outers. Was lean on just the center carb unless I got the power valve open. With the outers hooked back up going rich when they tip in and a slight bog/hesitation/flatness early on then things come alive :bigsmile:
I tried going one step stiffer in the vacuum diaphragm springs from long yellow to purple but no change noticed in the quick drive when the tire went flat. I will try it again later today and make sure. I am going to make up some 1/2" delrin spacers next week so I am holding off on any more jetting until I put those on and will probably try dropping to 80's . Good luck with it and I will hope for the best for ya.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Chryco Psycho on April 11, 2014 - 11:20:29 am
even between cylinders?
No a pressure test would not show a leak between cylinders but then you would not be getting white smoke / steam either , does the smoke have a smell ? Usually coolant has a sweet smell
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: mopar jack on April 11, 2014 - 11:35:55 am
I had an engine that blew smoke for a week after I cleaned it with solvent. It was an old motor on an engine stand and I pulled the pan and srayed it with solvent to remove any sludge. Dried it out and stuck it in the car and it took a long time to stop smoking but it ran for another 15 years. You may have a simular issue after getting gas in your oil. Also I notice you are using an MSD blaster coil. I've had prolbems when they are mounted on their side. I would check to see if there is any oil leaking from the coil where the top is pressed on. The coil can cause a lot of weird problems before it totally fails.

Jack
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 11, 2014 - 08:00:07 pm
Just spent a couple hours messing with it. Compression checked 7 of the 8 (the 8th is a bear  :bigsmile:) and all came out 190-200. I know, something must be wrong with my gauge, but at least they were consistent. When I last had a mechanic check the compression about 5 years ago they were all in the 175-180 range IIRC.
Tried starting again and no fuel pressure. I may be out of fuel again. Last week I put 2 gallons in and hard to believe I went through it already.
Try tomorrow.  :working: :faint:

PS
wonder if Im pumping up a little water from the tank? Water sinks to the bottom, and not be as diluted with a very low level of fuel  :clueless:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 12, 2014 - 01:04:50 pm
I had an engine that blew smoke for a week after I cleaned it with solvent. It was an old motor on an engine stand and I pulled the pan and srayed it with solvent to remove any sludge. Dried it out and stuck it in the car and it took a long time to stop smoking but it ran for another 15 years. You may have a simular issue after getting gas in your oil. Also I notice you are using an MSD blaster coil. I've had prolbems when they are mounted on their side. I would check to see if there is any oil leaking from the coil where the top is pressed on. The coil can cause a lot of weird problems before it totally fails.

Jack

Thanks, but Im sure the problem is fuel related. I put another 4 gallons fresh 93 in this morning and still no fuel pressure. No squirt from the nozzle. Pressure gauge between the regulator and the carbs registers "0", so went back to the mallory 110 fuel pump and pulled it apart. Thinking that pulling on fumes and whatnot may have damaged the pump? I could hear it running but....anyways it looked clean so putting it back together now.
I am just glad it probably isnt a head gasket.
Wonder if the holley bypass regulator could somehow be bad? I would think if it went bad it would allow too much pressure, instead of not enough. Check that next.  :working:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 12, 2014 - 05:20:38 pm
Got it running again, though still badly. Replaced the fuel filter, went through the fuel pump, replaced some rubber fuel lines back near the tank, and got back my 7pounds of pressure  :2thumbs:
I wish I had some help. Since I cant get it running, I cant get out of the car to work the throttle, look down the throats, observe the fuel pressure, smell and check the exhaust smoke, etc. Maybe its a fuel pressure problem.
 :working: :working: :working:
At least its a beautiful 85 degree day, and the wife is out of town so I dont have to listen to her complain about the smells.
She HATES me anywhere near her if Ive been working with gas, and I cant even smell it. Im a dullard when it comes to the senses, and then theres the whole bringing dirt and grease into the house issue. :misbehaving:

Probably should change the name of this thread again to "Six pack issues and everything else that could probably try your patience, in 999 easy steps!"
Getting so fed up because now I will probably have to wait 3 more weeks before I can work on it again  :pullinghair: :stomp:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 12, 2014 - 06:07:33 pm
Maybe now Im getting somewhere. I finally just used a pipe to hold the gas pedal down while I looked things over at about 2000 rpm. Noticed LOTS of white smoke (the picture doesnt do it justice...it was a whiteout at one point), and something bubbling around the green marked areas in the first picture. At first I thought it was from the valve cover, but almost certainly coming out the manifold. Also noticed what looked like a fairly clear fluid bubbling out the other side as well, but I cant confirm it to be gas. Also noticed something oily greasy running down the pan under the manifold too. If this stuff leaks out the gasket that easily maybe the lower manifold gaskets are an issue too?
Noticed the pressure dropped from 7 to about 5.5 on the gauge at 2000 rpm and didnt notice it jumping around. Also, probably doesnt mean anything, but noticed the passenger side exhaust tailpipe was wet with fuel having blown all over but the the left side was mostly dry  :clueless:
Obviously if its fuel, where the heck could all that be coming from?? It was literally bubbling out on both sides.
Think Ill try swapping out the inlet needle valve again. Dont know what else could cause that much fuel to be dumped down the manifold except a stuck or overwhelmed valve. Pulled the valve and the site plug... the fuel level was somewhere below the hole. Doesnt make sense.
A wise man (a former boss) once told me, when things dont make sense, drugs are somehow involved. That must be it. My car is on drugs!


(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_2764.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_2764.jpg.html)

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_2757.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_2757.jpg.html)

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_2762.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_2762.jpg.html)

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_2759.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_2759.jpg.html)

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_2766.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_2766.jpg.html)

Sorry for all the pictures but its the best way I know how to communicate this stuff.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 12, 2014 - 07:49:41 pm
So aggravating. getting dark and Ive spent all day on it.  :walkaway:
At least I got it started up today.  :cheers:
I have 66 jets now, so maybe I will order some 62s, but I cannot imagine that is my problem. 
Was running 80s before and never had fuel bubbling out the manifold gaskets!:horse:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tman on April 12, 2014 - 08:48:18 pm
Put your finger in the bubbly stuff and what does it smell like?  You have one anomaly.  For stuff to come out of that area requires great pressure.  This area is supposed to be vacuum and sucking in. 
Can you do a pressure radiator test.  See if it holds pressure (as long as the radiator does not leak).  You will have to get a pressure tester.  Possibly borrow one or something. Could still be a possible head gasket issue or the worse cracked head.  But since its happening on both sides, more of a gasket issue.  Lots of white smoke is steam.  Should smell coolant though. 
Like this:  http://www.amazon.com/Stant-12270-Cooling-System-Pressure/dp/B0002SRGWU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1397349799&sr=8-2&keywords=radiator+pressure+tester+kit (http://www.amazon.com/Stant-12270-Cooling-System-Pressure/dp/B0002SRGWU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1397349799&sr=8-2&keywords=radiator+pressure+tester+kit)
Keep up the patience.  Looks like you have a great car. 
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 12, 2014 - 09:11:33 pm
But how can coolant find its way out there?
It cant be a cracked head...in several places out both sides.

Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tman on April 13, 2014 - 02:14:13 am
I agree that it shouldn't be cracked heads because its on both sides.  But there is pressure somewhere making it discharge something out in those areas.  Those areas around the manifold should be vacuum, which is a vacuum leak, instead you are having discharge.  That's the odd thing.  With all that gas going down your cylinders may have affected the head gaskets?  Looks like thinking out of the box on your case.  All the things you have done should have resolved most situations, but it hasn't.  That's why I mention doing a cooling system pressure test.  Pump pressure into radiator and see if it holds.  Also, when motor gets hot, expansion makes the problem worse vs cold?  Or is it just as bad cold and you don't even have a chance to get it warm.  A leak down test of cylinders is a better tool to use for head gasket issues, which is a reverse of the radiator test, except you can put much more pressure in a cylinder vs radiator. 
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 13, 2014 - 11:16:07 am
I agree that it shouldn't be cracked heads because its on both sides.  But there is pressure somewhere making it discharge something out in those areas.  Those areas around the manifold should be vacuum, which is a vacuum leak, instead you are having discharge.  That's the odd thing.  With all that gas going down your cylinders may have affected the head gaskets?  Looks like thinking out of the box on your case.  All the things you have done should have resolved most situations, but it hasn't.  That's why I mention doing a cooling system pressure test.  Pump pressure into radiator and see if it holds.  Also, when motor gets hot, expansion makes the problem worse vs cold?  Or is it just as bad cold and you don't even have a chance to get it warm.  A leak down test of cylinders is a better tool to use for head gasket issues, which is a reverse of the radiator test, except you can put much more pressure in a cylinder vs radiator.

I'll check that out.
The radiator coolant hasnt yet circulated, hasnt gotten warm enough. Still looks nice and greenish and untouched.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: bandt on April 13, 2014 - 01:58:57 pm
Could it be as simple as blown out manifold gaskets???

 Maybe your seeing coolant being pushed out at the valve cover side and getting in through the intake runners on the head.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tman on April 13, 2014 - 02:22:11 pm
Any idea if the motor overheated from the first day?  The brake booster cap was replaced correct?  I know when my brake booster check valve was cracked, my car would not idle and would die with a loud vacuum cleaner sound.  But for your cap to come off altogether could mean you are having the opposite of venting instead of vacuum.  Hmmm.  Is the brake booster check valve ok?  I had a hell of a time looking for the problem with the loud vacuum sound, but then found the hose outlet was cracked.  Disconnect the vacuum hose to check valve and plug it to see if the motor runs better.  I did not have issues of stuff spewing out any gaskets though.  White smoke is concerning.  Hope the cause is just one thing, but there are multiple symptoms. No one needs to go thru this. 
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on April 13, 2014 - 05:07:37 pm
Be nice to know what was bubbling out of the intake manifold at the heads.  As already said, there should be a vacuum there and things should be sucked in, not pushed out-unless, possibly, there was a leak in the headgaskets and the pressure from combustion was pushing coolant out and back into an adjacent cylinder overcoming the intake seal at the head.

No coolant in the intake so it would have to come via the heads or block...strikes me strange that it does it on both sides....

I have not had a lot of luck finding a hg leak with a compression test.....prefer the radiator pressure test, or a leak down test....

sure looks like coolant in the exhaust from the picture...gas is black when over rich and oil is more bluish white and smells strongly like oil
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: bandt on April 13, 2014 - 05:29:19 pm
Be nice to know what was bubbling out of the intake manifold at the heads.  As already said, there should be a vacuum there and things should be sucked in, not pushed out-unless, possibly, there was a leak in the headgaskets and the pressure from combustion was pushing coolant out and back into an adjacent cylinder overcoming the intake seal at the head.

No coolant in the intake so it would have to come via the heads or block...strikes me strange that it does it on both sides....

I have not had a lot of luck finding a hg leak with a compression test.....prefer the radiator pressure test, or a leak down test....

sure looks like coolant in the exhaust from the picture...gas is black when over rich and oil is more bluish white and smells strongly like oil



I was thinking the RB manifold had coolant crossovers like the LA.

Brian

Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tman on April 13, 2014 - 05:46:47 pm
They don't.  Should be zero water to intake manifold. 
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Skunkworks Challenger on April 13, 2014 - 06:31:59 pm
Looking at the black goo in the pictures I think it is a combination of gasoline and gasket/sealer that was formed when you had liquid gas in your intake manifold.  You have not run it long enough since to burn all that stuff away.  There is probably more of it inside the intake than you see on the outside.  This would give you white smoke.  Once you run it long enough and get it hot enough it will burn away and no more smoke. I would re-torque the intake bolts. Just a long range guess. 
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: cuda346pk on April 14, 2014 - 01:35:03 am
Tommy, check the center of the 3 holes next to the vacuum pod mounting screws. It looks like it has a gold ball maybe pressed in sealing it but allowing the vacuum advance port to still breathe. I don't think it is your problem but I left my pod on cause I did not want to permanently alter the carb by driving in the lead ball supplied with the manual choke kit I tried to use.

Nevermind, don't pay any attention to me. I had too many things going on and confused parts of the inner and outer carbs in my minds eye.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Chryco Psycho on April 14, 2014 - 05:27:43 am
I wonder if the brake booster is full of fuel also
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 14, 2014 - 08:28:05 am
I wonder if the brake booster is full of fuel also

Dont think so.
I tried siphoning anything out and there didnt seem to be anything in the booster. I left it uncapped for a month and whatever amount may have got in there, if any, probably evaporated.
Next time I take it apart I will definitely remove and reset the manifold.
Torque specs and pattern for an iron manifold?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on April 15, 2014 - 01:40:18 pm

Definitely pull the manifold and see whats going on. I'm thinking with all your fuel issues you may have incurred some issues with either gasket seal or destroyed the gasket so now you might be getting oil from the valley pan area. White smoke is usually burning oil but not always.

Torque specs for cast iron is a bit more than aluminum (wowza I forgot how much higher)
 Intake Manifold Bolt    40    3/8-16

The pattern which I follow is from the middle to the outside, going from side to side.

Once you pull the manifold I think you should have some of your answers, along with using a 61 or 62 jet will put you closer to finished.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 17, 2014 - 09:01:22 pm
Ok, had an hour of time to spend in the garage tonight, so I pulled the manifold (with the center carb on it).
It was heavy. Had to strain to pull it up and off. Getting old. :(
I didnt realize the valley pan also served as a defacto gasket. The only sealing material seamed to be a relatively thin line of gray colored silicone type material.
Here are a few pictures. Any comments:
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudasixpackmanifoldb.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudasixpackmanifoldb.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudasixpackmanifolda.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudasixpackmanifolda.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudasixpackmanifoldd.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudasixpackmanifoldd.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudasixpackmanifoldc.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudasixpackmanifoldc.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on April 17, 2014 - 09:08:26 pm
Bingo white smoke!!!
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 17, 2014 - 09:31:36 pm
Bingo white smoke!!!

??
Dont think any oil has been burning though I could be wrong.
You think oil splash from the valley area (oil fumes) is getting sucked up and into the intake?
If the manifold was leaking wouldnt that create a lean condition?

Going to clean everything up and put it back on next week some time.
What type sealant should I use, and how much? I assume it wont hurt to apply it liberally.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on April 17, 2014 - 09:42:18 pm
One thing. Silicone is not impervious to gasoline and will eventually begin to leak. Suck air in and /or oil

Steve

Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 17, 2014 - 09:49:51 pm
where would oil (or coolant) be coming from?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: brads70 on April 17, 2014 - 09:51:11 pm
I'd block off the exhaust going to the intake( if it goes in the intake?). You won't need that feature in Florida! :grinno: The intake gasket set I had for my old 440 had thin paper gaskets that went on either side of the steel gasket.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on April 17, 2014 - 09:55:49 pm
Out of the valley if the tray is not sealed properly

Steve

Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on April 17, 2014 - 10:16:17 pm
It should be obvious that it leaked when you removed the tray if oil was going into the port

Steve

Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 17, 2014 - 10:19:10 pm
Did a quick search and CP back in 2006 suggested felpro 1215 gasket set.
Is this it:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-1215/ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-1215/)

This set comes with a new pan, blocking off the exhaust heat ports

And, are new bolts a necessity. ARP seems to be the suggested brand.

Funny coincidence about that 2006 thread
(http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=27914.msg277501#msg277501 (http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=27914.msg277501#msg277501))
.... member named Moper contributed it and he was the guy to last tune and set up my six pack!  :cheers: :cooldancing:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on April 17, 2014 - 10:31:03 pm
No need for bolts

Steve

Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: brads70 on April 17, 2014 - 10:40:04 pm
Did a quick search and CP back in 2006 suggested felpro 1215 gasket set.
Is this it:
[url]http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-1215/[/url] ([url]http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-1215/[/url])

This set comes with a new pan, blocking off the exhaust heat ports



That's what I used on my old 440.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on April 18, 2014 - 01:59:17 am
Ditto, just make sure you have a good seal and your white smoke should disappear.

Based on your info about jetting I dont see it running that rich to blow clouds of white smoke.

Use the old bolts and torque them down to spec
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on April 18, 2014 - 11:43:38 am
unless your found a lot of oil going into an intake port, I kinda doubt you found the source of the smoke....and that much smoke should have produced a very oily smell
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on April 18, 2014 - 11:56:22 am

Some times you just have to knock one problem down at a time.

 :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 18, 2014 - 01:11:19 pm
Car has run fairly well for quite a few years now, up until that night a couple months ago. Ever since then  :bricks1:
But at least I think all my issues are from the manifold up, so it shouldnt be that difficult. Right!? 
I doubt the manifold leak is causing my problems too. Probably not that simple.

When the parts come in next week from summit, I will use the paper gasket beneath the pan, and silicone sealer above.
In the meantime gonna clean up the manifold, make it nice and pretty.
By the way, are these carb gaskets ok, or should I use the ones that have 2 holes?
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_2734.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_2734.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on April 18, 2014 - 01:28:22 pm
Some times you just have to knock one problem down at a time.

 :2thumbs:

absolutely true!  I was referring to the clouds of white smoke problem, tho :)  If the manifold was leaking, it should run better without a doubt and it appeared to be leaking from the stuff leaking out which is hard to explain as it should be leaking "in"  :D

I am not convinced the problem is in the carbs...they seemed to be okay until the night he romped on it...??

If it popped back thru the intake, it could have pushed the gasket or blew a power valve....white smoke is very worrisome to me

Valve float could also allow combustion pressure back into the intake...
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 18, 2014 - 09:44:24 pm
A few pictures which look disturbing to me for an engine with 7000 miles on it since last gone through, especially the inconsistency of conditions. And now I know why it blows more smoke out the passenger side. #8 in particular seems to sit lower back there where oil is settling. Tried unsuccessfully to get my endoscope snake camera working but these pictures are good enough to give you an idea.
Comments?
PS...these are in order intakes #1 to #8

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake1.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake1.jpg.html)(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake2.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake2.jpg.html)(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake3.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake3.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake4.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake4.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake5.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake5.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake6.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake6.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake7.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake7.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake8.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaintake8.jpg.html)

I always instinctively knew something was amiss with #8, and now I see what. Plugs were always wet when I pulled them, and when the car sits for more than a week or two between starting it, it always would run rough for a couple minutes, and I knew it was from that side.
What do I do here?  :1zhelp:
I am as full of questions as I have pictures. How easy is it to replace the seals, set lash, etc. and are my problems bigger than that?

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaengine111005.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudaengine111005.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on April 18, 2014 - 10:50:29 pm
I would start by making sure the intake is properly sealed....remember:  no silicone.  Use something like Gasgacinch sealer or permatex aviation

Normally, oil past the valve guide will be mostly on the intake side (which coincides with oil past the intake gasket) due to vacuum on that valve...if the guides are worn badly, that can increase the problem...

Hard to see how this particular problem coincides with getting on the car hard one night as this is usually something that gets worse with time.

You should have a strong oil odor coming out the tail pipes and smoke should be very thick
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on April 19, 2014 - 12:31:10 pm

Those pics definitely show burnt oil on number 8, at least it's confined to number 8 cylinder.

Did you put something into #8 to reduce the flash or something? It does look like the guides might be worn.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Chryco Psycho on April 19, 2014 - 01:10:59 pm
I have had the intake gaskets leak from the bottom so it could just be sucking oil up from the lifter valley below the 6&8 intake runners , the heads may be fine
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 19, 2014 - 01:20:47 pm
#8 has so much oil in it, probably mostly from sitting, that it must be dropping down through the seal. Oil puddles back there around the springs. Also had a small pile of crud only at the base of the #8 intake springs.
Since Ive come this far, might as well replace the seals, at least on the passenger side. I'll search and try to edumacate myself on it
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudavalvesprings.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/Cudavalvesprings.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on April 30, 2014 - 06:12:05 pm
Status update.
Got in my manley steel case viton valve seals and a pair of valve cover gaskets.
Now I think I will hold off putting everything back together another week for one reason....my son comes home for a few days between terms in college. He is going to graduate in a year with a mechanical/aerospace engineering degree, and he doesnt have a clue about anything under the hood of a car.  :bigsmile: :bigsmile:
I didnt know much at his age either, but at least I was exposing myself. If only I can get him to pay attention with me for a few hours as if he were in class. :horse:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: onebadfish on July 06, 2014 - 05:59:28 pm
I just replaced my intake pan and did a rebuild on the 6-pack. I didn't have any gaskets between the head and pan nor the pan and intake. I used Ultra black Permatex to seal the front and rear of the pan where the flat bars are bolted. Spread a 1/4 inch seam across from one side to the other going up an inch or so on each head. After that, brush both sides of the metal pan with HYLOMAR. It is impervious to gas and will seal your intake pan to the heads and the pan to the intake and make a great seal. I have had no issues doing it this way for years. Just make sure the mating surfaces are clean. Prep is MOST important.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: spamtank on July 06, 2014 - 07:59:31 pm
Hey Onebad,

Thanks for the lead on HYLOMAR.   :thumbsup:  That may be just the stuff I'm looking for to solve a project that has dogged me for a month.   :bricks1:   :bananasmi

Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: DocMel on July 12, 2014 - 01:06:20 pm
Howdy:  I havent had a chance to read all replies, but about the holley six pack set ups.  I have allot of experience with the '60-'70s holley six packs, and the gm version, called the tri-powers that were typically only on big block vettes.

Just a general FYI of what I have learned

1.   The new holley six pack set ups do not have the proper metering plates:  While they will run ok out of the box, you cant tune to the optimum performance that the sixs are capable of

2, Holley has lost their technical knowledge of these setups.  I dont even waste time with their so called Tech help

3. Rebuild kits now, and for about the last 20-years, are incorrect in what is included in them.  Will it work, yes, will it be capable of being tuned correctly, not really

Most previous owners have had thier original setups botched up over the years by so called restorers or carb rebuilders.  Most carb rebuilders use rebuild kits that again, dont have the actual parts required for premium tuning as was available back in the day

But there a few rebuilders left that can rebuild six packs and use what is available now and get them to work with a few tricks
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on August 30, 2014 - 07:31:03 pm
Well, after watching the cuda collect dust for the past 4 months, I finally started to put it back together today.
Been extremely busy with work and family, in fact I still am, and the weather has really been too hot for me to have fun working in the garage, but my daughter gave birth to my first grandkid the other night, and it inspired me to get off my duff and get it running again.
So, first thing this morning I lifted off all 52 pounds of the iron manifold, and pulled the pan to get off all the perma seal and the gasket material off. Months ago I tried using one paper gasket under the valley pan and I couldnt get more than a few manifold bolts on. The geometry just didnt work. So I spent a few hours cleaning it all up, and then tried the Hylomar equivalent (because it says so right on the package!) Permaseal #85420. Its blue tacky stuff which hopefully will work.
Thanks from me too Onebadfish.
Got the manifold bolted down this time, and maybe tomorrow Ill reinstall the passenger valve cover (I replaced a few rear stem seals) and start mounting the carbs.
And Docmel, sorry I havent even looked at this thread in a while, but your advice seems spot on. The new kits come with various different universal type gaskets and who knows if they really do the job right. Probably not.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: CudamanTom on August 30, 2014 - 10:54:22 pm
Grandpa Tommy,

Congrats!!!  :cheers:

And I understand the hot weather thing. I've hibernated from the heat for the past month.  :stomp:

Keep us posted on what happens.  :2thumbs:

So do you feel that your moving slower now that your a grandpa?  :poopoke:

Honestly, I can't wait to be a grandpa. That is really cool.  :woohoo:

Post pics of the little one when you can please.  :swaying:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on September 01, 2014 - 05:38:17 pm
Little one is fine. Should be home from NICU in about 7 days.
Tried starting it this afternoon, and it coughed and wheezed for about 1-2 minutes again. Wouldnt run.
Checked the oil among other things and found at least one and maybe two quarts of fuel in the oil, so I drained it...again.  :bricks1:
Also saw a small run coming from the front corner of the manifold down into the top of the valley pan  :dogpile:

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3446.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3446.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3448.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3448.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on September 07, 2014 - 02:00:21 pm
Im almost ready to throw in the towel.
Maybe tow it to a mechanic I know to give it a shot. I doubt if he has any experience with 6 packs but he might. I know he owns a 69 camaro.
I have drained and replaced the oil 3 times since last weekend. The crankcase keeps flooding with fuel, and the #8 cylinder keeps flooding...hydrolock...the engine stops cranking after a few seconds each time I clear the cylinders. I even have the site plug off the center carb (the outboards arent even mounted) so I know the level in the float bowl is good and Im not even touching the throttle when I crank.
I have no idea how the #8 chamber is flooding, unless the exhaust valve is failing to open at all, and how the crankcase is flooding with fuel, especially so quickly.  :clueless:
I started cranking with the fuel pump OFF, and foot to the floor just to try and clear the fuel but now one last time I think Ill pull the right valve cover and check the operation of the #8 exhaust valve.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/IMG_3464.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/IMG_3464.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on September 07, 2014 - 09:47:35 pm
Click to see video
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/th_IMG_3466.mp4) (http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/IMG_3466.mp4)

LOL
I am just happy I got it idling (if you can call it that!), with everything Ive gone through here.
Seems like its only running on about 4-6 cylinders
Ill try to spend some more time on it later in the week.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: brads70 on September 09, 2014 - 08:46:26 pm
What's your Fuel pressure at? Maybe you need a regulator? Sorry if that's already been covered?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on September 09, 2014 - 09:26:42 pm
Hi Brad
I have a holley in line fuel pressure gauge that reads 7 psi, but I also have a holley FPR just before it on the inner fender that doesnt seem to work when I try to lower the pressure....but, the float is set to just below the site hole, and I would think if the pressure was overwhelming the float/inlet valve it would come streaming out the hole. It isnt.
I probably have a combination of simple problems. One thing at a time I hope to get it. I just dont have a lot of time lately
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: brads70 on September 09, 2014 - 10:15:53 pm
Hi Brad
I have a holley in line fuel pressure gauge that reads 7 psi, but I also have a holley FPR just before it on the inner fender that doesnt seem to work when I try to lower the pressure....but, the float is set to just below the site hole, and I would think if the pressure was overwhelming the float/inlet valve it would come streaming out the hole. It isnt.
I probably have a combination of simple problems. One thing at a time I hope to get it. I just dont have a lot of time lately

These carbs worked just fine before right? Not like you added one and it has the wrong gasket or something inside causing a leak , bad casting,etc..?  Sunk float, needle and seat gone bad?  :dunno: :clueless:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: mopar jack on September 09, 2014 - 10:33:45 pm
Tommy I would take the center carb off the manifold and set it away from the car and hook it to the fuel pump with  three or four feet of rubber fuel hose. Make sure fuel won't spray around your car and turn on the electric pump. If the carb is leaking you'll know. Do you have the vapor seperator fuel filter with a return line back to the fuel tank? If so I wonder if it's plumbed wrong and fuel is returning back through the vapor recovery line to the breather on the right valve cover very close to cyl. # 8.
Jack
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on September 10, 2014 - 04:45:51 pm
Its my old inboard that I have now rebuilt twice trying to solve this problem. I have replaced all the normal rebuild parts, plus replaced the float bowl. As you can see in the pictures, I dont even have the outboards mounted yet, but I bought two used outboards off a "running six pack" car and rebuilt them too. Turns out my "old" outboards were from a 340 car.

I will try hooking the main up to the fuel by itself to see if fuel leaks anywhere, but I dont have ANY hoses other than fuel line hooked to it for now.
The only way fuel could get into the motor would be down the throat of the manifold. I wonder if the fact a few vacuum orifices on the carb are open could be causing the problem? Or, maybe I need to mount the outboards. I read a few places not to even connect them until the center is running well, but maybe the fact they arent even mounted is leading to a hugely rich condition.....not enough air coming in?? But, I did get it running a few months ago for one trip around the block like this and it ran okay. Still blowing white smoke, but at least all eight fired and ran somewhat smoothly, and...Ive also read at least one guy recommending carb plate blockoffs for this purpose. Thats why I made a pair out of plywood
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: mopar jack on September 10, 2014 - 09:46:39 pm
I know you have an  electric fuel pump. Some guys will also use the mechanical with the  electric. If you have a mechanical it is possible for fuel to enter the crank case if the diaprhagm fails.

Jack
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on September 10, 2014 - 10:14:02 pm
Tommy

Its a side issue but you ned to mount your coil upright like me.

As for the carbs. - have a four barrel intake and a good known carb to test with?

B
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on September 10, 2014 - 10:48:24 pm
Tommy

Its a side issue but you ned to mount your coil upright like me.

As for the carbs. - have a four barrel intake and a good known carb to test with?

B

Coil upright...why?
I dont have a mechanical pump or a replacement 4 barrel setup.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: jhaag on September 11, 2014 - 09:17:08 pm
coils like yours are filled with oil. if it is on it's side some of the windings could be uncovered causing excess heat. see a lot of them mounted like yours but MSD says to mount them upright.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Chryco Psycho on September 11, 2014 - 09:28:39 pm
The MSD coils can leak mounted horizontally unless u use the vibration coil . The 6 Pack basically requires it mount horizontally though
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on September 16, 2014 - 09:59:46 pm
Can someone take a look at my hose hookups. This is a picture from years ago when I purchased the car, and Ive cleaned it up a lot since then, but this picture is the best I have that shows where I have the pcv connected, and the bowl vent hose (back to the case). I also have the hose that runs from the brake booster to the rear of the intake manifold, and finally the secondaries connected with the main. The main has one other tube that is capped.
Is this right? Want to make sure nothing here is contributing to my white smoke problems.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/71Cudaengine709003.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/71Cudaengine709003.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3543.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3543.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: DocMel on September 17, 2014 - 10:52:18 am
I might b wrong, but 7 pds sounds a little high  Dial down to about 5.5 pds and see what happens
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on September 20, 2014 - 08:04:18 pm
 :pullinghair: :pullinghair:

I spent most of the day working on it today, and changed the oil twice, so that makes 4 times total. I hate throwing away perfectly good oil after only a few minutes.
Every time I run the motor the crankcase fills with at least a couple quarts of gas. I have no idea where its coming from but it MUST be just running down the manifold because #8 keeps hydrolocking.
The floats are adjusted well and shutting properly.
I think I have tried virtually every trick or advice given here and Im just stumped
Car has been sitting in the garage for over 6 months now and it deserves to have someone enjoying it, but
If tomorrow doesnt go better Im calling it quits

PS
If nothing else at least Im no longer hesitant to work on the six pack, and though Im not saving anything on car insurance, I can pull the whole setup in 15 minutes now.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3554.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3554.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3557.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3557.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on September 20, 2014 - 09:05:03 pm
Mechanical pump?  If so, disconnect the inlet line from the pump so it cannot get any gas from the tank.   Now you have no gas going into the carbs.  Fill the bowls of the carbs thru the vent tubes.  Crank the engine and see how it runs until the bowls, or center bowl, runs out of gas.

Steve
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on September 20, 2014 - 09:21:42 pm
electric pump
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on September 20, 2014 - 09:36:36 pm
Okay,then, two ways to get that much gas into the crankcase.  Gas going past the needle valves and flooding the engine or a pressurized vent line pushing gas back into a carb.

Being sure you have 5-6 psi of fuel pressure, you should be able to see gas pouring into the engine when you look down the carb or carbs.

If you have a vent line connected, I am sure you have removed it and plugged it already.

What I don't understand is why you don't have black smoke boiling out the pipes when you start it.  Also, why does only one cylinder hydrolocking?

If you pull that plug and catch the liquid that comes out when you turn the engine over, is it pure gas?

Steve
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on September 20, 2014 - 10:21:49 pm
I should say that Moparjack gave me the idea to remove the center carb and see what comes out of it, and sure enough I set it in a metal tray and fuel comes flooding out the bottom from somewhere in the bore area, but I havent been able to zero in exactly where or why. You can see the gasket above is soaked.
This is with only the fuel pump on, no starting or pumping the throttle or anything. ONLY turning on the fuel pump.
Obviously fuel should not be dumping out, especially a LOT. The float bowl fills, but only up to about the bottom of the sight plug hole where I have it set, and I assume the inlet valve is shutting off when it reaches that level, because it doesnt spill out, but how is it not coming out the open sight hole but pouring through the bores?
I know Im close. Maybe I just have the wrong gaskets installed?
How do you know? The kit is what it is  :clueless:
Also, it goes into #8 because the rear of the manifold probably sits nearly an inch lower than the front. Its just flowing downhill, and I noticed it keeps pouring out for at least 5-10 seconds after you shut it off, probably at least a cup, maybe more in just those few seconds
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on September 20, 2014 - 10:51:14 pm
Ok, then you know where the problem is but not what/why. That's progress!  Don't put it back on until you solve the leak.  Save a lot of oil that way.

I don't have a six pack book.  Are there any pressed in plugs that could let the gas drain out of the bowls into the carb?  A crack in the valve body? A missing check ball?  Blown out power valve? If it has one....

You might Google and see if you can find the page from the six pack book that shows the carb blow up.

Don't get frustrated, you have made some good progress




Steve
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on September 20, 2014 - 10:54:39 pm
http://www.chicagocarburetor.com/carburetor-parts.php?c=2354

Steve
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on September 20, 2014 - 11:00:48 pm
Looks just like a four barrel to me

http://www.wwnboa.org/h2300r.htm

Steve
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on September 20, 2014 - 11:27:03 pm
Thanks strawdawg, but I have already checked those sites. In fact I have the wingedwarrior site listed as a favorite and have studied it at least 20 times over the last 6 months, since the problem started. Rebuilt these carbs once, and then replaced the outboards with used, then rebuilt them, and then replaced several of those float bowls, etc etc.
Dont see any cracks, but how can you tell if the power valve is working?
Gotta be something to do with the metering block or gaskets? Idle screws?
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3559.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3559.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3558.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3558.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on September 20, 2014 - 11:53:26 pm
It seems to be a flat out leak and not a seep.

You can suck on the pv and see if it pulls the plunger in. . If it does not move,  it would appear to have a tear in the diaphragm. You would also suck air thru the tear.

There must be a major leak thru the metering block into the body to leak as you describe.  If you hold it up, open the butterflies,  and look into the body,  can you see where the fuel is coming out at?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Chryco Psycho on September 20, 2014 - 11:57:41 pm
Fuel could be overflowing the booster height & flooding through the boosters , it could also be coming though the powervalve if the diaphragm is failed , if you suck on the back of the PV away from the spring it should sty closed until you relese the vacuum then the spring will pop it open , if the vacuum will not hold it close the PV is bad . it look like you have the correct gasket in there .
 make sure the fuel pressure 6 psi or lower so it is not sinking the floats & over filling the bowl although if it is at the bottom of the sight plugs I doubt it is.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: mopar jack on September 21, 2014 - 12:42:10 am
Most likely coming from the power valve. Either the diaphragm is bad or the pv gasket isn't set properly. There is a hole in the main body that pulls vacuum on the pv and if fuel gets past the pv it will run into the manifold.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on September 21, 2014 - 12:45:04 pm
Sounds like a blown PowerValve (what kind is it? 6.5? I think stock is a 4?) based on your pictures Tommy this sucker is dumping fuel out of your center carb like a Top Fuel dragster.

Btw, what is your idle vacuum? I think you said it was like 12 inches or in that neighborhood.
 - Found it - "Now for the tuning. Running about 15 inches vacuum at 900 rpm. Timing at about 14 degrees."


So your powervalve should be a 7 or 7.5 for this much vacuum. But the 6.5 that should come with a rebuild kit would not hurt. Which one do you have on there again? It's stamped on the front part of the power valve and I cannot read it cause the flash made so much reflection in your pic.

I know this is a cheby site but has a cool way to testing your power valve:
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/74058-carburetor-valve-problems/ (http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/74058-carburetor-valve-problems/)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on September 21, 2014 - 02:14:37 pm
Not sure, its somewhere in this thread but I think I have 13-14 lbs vacuum.
The numbers are hard to read but I think I had and have a 6.5 PV. I noticed the new PV was not threaded in tight. I was able to unscrew it with my fingers.
So, if you suck on the back side of the PV it should start compressing the spring and opening the valve with more vacuum, or does compressing the spring shut the PV? I would think more vacuum would open it, and normal state is closed.
Regardless, I cant operate it with the 5 pounds vacuum my vacuum cleaner sucks (I measured it with my vacuum gauge)
I just put my old PV back in and tightened it in good this time and will try again after the game  :bigsmile:
Things may be making sense now, and if this fixes it I am pissed at myself for not catching that before now.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Chryco Psycho on September 21, 2014 - 02:24:16 pm
Vacuum closes the valve , the spring will compress & the cone pulls inward to cut off the flow , more vacuum keeps it closed less will allow it to open with higher load on the engine , if it was loose that was the problem as you have 15" of engine vacuum pulling fuel past the gasket on the power valve , I assume you have a gasket in there !!
 to test tham I just use my mouth but 5 " of vacuum should not overcome a 6.5" rated PV anyway
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on September 21, 2014 - 04:03:29 pm
It was leaking out on the bench when not on the engine so it is either torn,  or very loose, if it's the problem
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: cuda346pk on September 22, 2014 - 01:38:48 am
Tommy. I think you have found the problem now but I do have a 72 factory manual that covers the 6 pack and the 6 pack engine handbook plus an old holly carburetor and manifold book by Mike Ulrich and bill fisher. If u need I can copy pages for you or am even willing to mail you the books to use until you figure it out.  It has to be pv,  gasket or Crack in body to get fuel like that and still have good float level.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on September 27, 2014 - 09:30:02 pm
Thanks for the offer, but
I think I am back on track now and getting closer  :bananasmi
Got it to finally idle and it isnt dumping fuel anymore. I think it was a loose PV.
Have the outboards mounted but not connected, and it is idling, but, as it warms up after a minute or two it starts smoking out the exhaust more and more. Then I shut it down and let it sit 20 minutes and start it up again, and did this routine several times today. Each time it seemed to idle OK. I set it at about 950 rpm. Hard to read but I think initial timing is in the 12-15 degree range. Idle needles about 3/4 to one turn out, and vacuum now seems about 8 inches at idle.
Problems are twofold for now:
First, after the first 30-45 seconds of running the exhaust starts smoking, and seems to get worse and worse the longer I leave it running. I am hoping this is just raw gas that probably was sitting in the exhaust. Hopefully this issue will fix itself but....?
Second, it is still dieseling badly each time I shut it off, and a few times it seemed to just cough and shut itself off after a few minutes idling. After I started it the first time today it had one huge flaming backfire belch out the carb. Hope the PV is still OK.
Not that I care for now, but my dash tach (an upgraded digital unit I think from 10 years ago) reads about 50% faster than the timing light tach. MSD issues I guess.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on September 27, 2014 - 10:04:31 pm
That had to make you feel better after all the struggle! :)

If you have the end carbs mounted but they are not filled with fuel, it will make the car run very lean at idle because they are sucking air but no fuel.  That may have made you have to open the throttle blades on the center carb more than normal to keep it running.  When you supply fuel to the other carbs, you may be able to close the center blades a bit and the after run/backfiring may go away.

I am guessing the exhaust has been saturated with excess fuel from the flooding and allowing it to run and get good and hot will probably eliminate the smoke after a bit.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on September 28, 2014 - 12:02:57 am
I did connect the fuel to the outboards but not the linkage or the vacuum tubes so that is probably the problem. I will connect them up tomorrow and see how it runs.
Just got so many things going on I never have more than a few minutes to spend on it. A funeral today, and tomorrow we're going out in several boats to drop his ashes in the ocean, then have a party in Stiltsville, then help my daughter move, etc.
Next two weekends are weddings out of town. You get the picture.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on October 01, 2014 - 06:25:14 pm
Had a spare 30 minutes this evening, so another update. After letting er idle a number of times for a few minutes each over the past few days, just tonight the smoke MAYBE started to clear.
But, it seems to only idle about 4-5 minutes then it abruptly shuts off with a big wheeze/cough out the center carb.
BTW, the secondaries are now fully connected up, fuel, linkages and vacuum tubes.

Also, whats with the vacuum less than 5 inches?
Could this be from a leak or uncapped opening? I checked everywhere I could. Maybe because I removed the choke assembly? I am pretty sure my numbers used to be in the 13-15 range.

Click the pictures below for photobucket video:
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/th_IMG_3615.mp4) (http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3615.mp4)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/th_IMG_3613.mp4) (http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3613.mp4)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on October 01, 2014 - 07:12:27 pm

Tommy

You have to have a huge vacuum leak otherwise you have a race cam and don't know it. Seriously you cannot because I would hear the lope if you did.

Find the source of the vacuum leak and plug her up. The exhaust sounds like one of your cylinders is drowning in fuel.

B
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tman on October 01, 2014 - 08:37:37 pm
Your vacuum gauge is hooked to ported vacuum.  Need to find manifold vacuum, which is below the throttle plates.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on October 01, 2014 - 10:40:00 pm
Will do.
Thanks.
With it hooked up properly, I am going to watch the vacuum gauge more carefully next time.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on October 02, 2014 - 10:12:54 pm
Yippee :woohoo:
Took it to the gas station tonight for the first time since last year.
Put 8 gallons of 93 Chevron in it.
I have been idling it for 5 minutes at a time, and it still cuts off after about 5 minutes for some reason.
Blowing a lot less smoke, but still a tiny bit.
Vacuum reads about 10 inches now at 1000 rpm, and goes up to about 20-22 at 3-4000 rpm. It seems fairly steady at a given rpm, so it isnt fluctuating or jumping around (which I think would indicate valve or ring issues)
Also, I still cant seem to get it to idle steadily, as it warms up it seems to want to start idling about 1500-2000 rpm, and then when I turn the adjustment screw down it will idle normal, but then next time I start it a few minutes later (while still warmed up) it will bog, so I have to turn the screw in again to get it to get the idle up to around 900-1000, and then after it runs awhile longer it sometimes start idling above 1500-2000 rpm again.
During my first drive around the block yesterday it was warmed and idling normally, but when I drove it up to about 3000 rpm it wanted to stay up there. I drove it home and pulled in the driveway with it "idling" about 3000.  :clueless: :clueless:
At least today it ran better, so I am making progress  :blah:
Still playing and trying to figure this thing out.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: cuda346pk on October 02, 2014 - 10:18:10 pm
Make sure all your throttle plates/shafts move freely thru full range. It's real easy to tweak the bottom of these 2 bbls and the shaft hangs open somewhere. I have learned to be very specific and carefully torque my carbs after replacing a couple. I still need to send you back the one you loaned me by the way. I am debating on heading to the keys layer this month if I do maybe I can  stop by and have a gander at it.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: mopar jack on October 03, 2014 - 12:02:58 am
Make sure the linkage shuts the outboard carbs tightly. If they open even a little you'll have idle issues. Also make sure   the vacuum advance is disconnected and the vacuum port plugged. It sounds like you are close to getting it done.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on October 03, 2014 - 12:51:11 pm
 :iagree:

Try to disable the choke on the carbs for now until you figure out the whole problem.

B
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on October 03, 2014 - 04:13:44 pm
The choke system has been totally disconnected, and the secondaries have been fully connected. I had the secondaries totally disconnected and the vacuum lines plugged last week and I just couldnt get the car to idle at all until I hooked up the secondaries.
I was getting very frustrated so I decided to hook them up and the car instantly seemed to idle much better (plus the power valve leaking which caused me a LOT of grief).
Anyways, the vacuum is at 9-10 inches now. Is that ok?
I should find a few hours over the weekend to fiddle with it. It seems the more it runs and the more I fiddle the better it gets. We'll see.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on October 05, 2014 - 05:24:24 pm
Ok, a question I cant seem to find the answer to.

- what is the at idle, or off position of the fuel pump lever under the main float bowl? That has a screw to set it, and I have tried to take all pressure off the lever at idle but not sure if its totally off. That does effect idle.

Just cant seem to get it to idle steadily. Either wants to run at 1600 rpm, or if I turn the idle set screw back even 1/16 turn it then wants to shut off. Pretty sure my outboards are as closed as theyre gonna get at idle. I have all 4 outboard idle screws set at 1/2 turn out (first picture is closed, second is 1/2 turn). The springs attached to the screws help a lot, especially the rear.

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3664.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3664.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3665.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3665.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3667.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_3667.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on October 12, 2014 - 10:51:03 pm
So glad I have it running now. Took it out a few times today, but it still isnt running right.
Idle is inconsistent. Sometimes it will idle at 1600, then Ill rev it and it will drop to 600, then after blipping the throttle it might go back up and settle at 1000. Seems to have a mind of its own.
I have been fiddling with all six idle screws but mostly the main throttle screw. All six idle screws are about 1/2 to 5/8th turns out.
Once today it just coughed and quit right out of nowhere, and still getting some dieseling after shutoff, but not every time.
Getting closer though
Btw, at about what vacuum should the secondaries open?
Revving the throttle in the driveway up to 4500rpm or so Ive never seen them open.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: brads70 on October 12, 2014 - 11:16:32 pm
On post #272 what is that you have the vice grips on ? Vacuum line? :dunno:( I've never worked on a 6-Pac)  I see them also below the front bowl ( last picture) Could this be a source of a vacuum leak?  As far as the idle I had some of the linkage hang up on the intake slightly causing an inconsistent idle? A few minutes with a die grinder fixed it for me. Also open the throttle blades wide open to make sure they are not hanging up on a gasket/casting too.
Glad your making progress!  :2thumbs:  This would be prime cruising season in your neck of the woods I'd imagine?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on October 13, 2014 - 11:54:57 am
Hi Brad,
Those are the custom "springs" attached to the idle screws for the secondaries. Helpful for adjusting the rear unit because without the upgraded base plate (which brings the adjusting screws out to the corners) you cant adjust them. The prior owner of these units attached these springs so I left them on, after of course rebuilding the rest of the unit and pulling the needles to check them and replacing the little cork seals.
I will double check your suggestions.
Thanks
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: brads70 on October 13, 2014 - 12:33:46 pm
Hi Brad,
Those are the custom "springs" attached to the idle screws for the secondaries. Helpful for adjusting the rear unit because without the upgraded base plate (which brings the adjusting screws out to the corners) you cant adjust them. The prior owner of these units attached these springs so I left them on, after of course rebuilding the rest of the unit and pulling the needles to check them and replacing the little cork seals.
I will double check your suggestions.
Thanks
Interesting. Again I have zero experience with these stock 6 pack set up so I'm enjoying learning from your posts . :2thumbs:
I have though worked on dozens of Holley 2bbl's used in circle track racing assuming they were pretty similar other than choke stuff.  Not so it seems. Where those idle tubes/screws are from what I know would be a vacuum port. That's why I was thinking they were a source of a vacuum leak. I'll have to find a picture of one with the base plate off to see how they work .
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on October 13, 2014 - 09:49:33 pm
The idle screws are basically set "front mid-bore" of each outboard, as you can see in the last picture, so the rear carb is impossible to get to without a special tool, or the way most people do it, by removing the carb. Of course thats a PITA, so I think promax and maybe someone else makes base plates that put the screws in the front corners so theyre more accessible.
I have no experience with Holley 2 bbls, but Ive worked on a lot of stihl and echo carbs? Of course ryobis are throw aways, but, you get the picture.  :bigsmile:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Chryco Psycho on October 14, 2014 - 07:20:21 am
The 600 or 1600 idle is one of 2 things , 1600 rpm is running off the boosters , 600 is on the idle circuit so you need more air flow without uncovering the idle transfer slots so you have to drill holes in the throttle plates so it ill idle between the 2.
 It could also be in the mechanical advance , if the springs are too light it can change the timing at idle causing the speed to flare up
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: brads70 on October 14, 2014 - 07:38:40 am
The idle screws are basically set "front mid-bore" of each outboard, as you can see in the last picture, so the rear carb is impossible to get to without a special tool, or the way most people do it, by removing the carb. Of course thats a PITA, so I think promax and maybe someone else makes base plates that put the screws in the front corners so theyre more accessible.
I have no experience with Holley 2 bbls, but Ive worked on a lot of stihl and echo carbs? Of course ryobis are throw aways, but, you get the picture.  :bigsmile:

That's the" beauty" of this site everyone knows something and has something to contribute. Collectively we are pretty darn knowledgeable!  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on October 14, 2014 - 01:21:57 pm

Tommy - have you had timing issues before this six pack carb issue came to be?

Kinda crazy it jumps from 1600 > 600 > 1000rpm and the choke is disabled so  :clueless:
Possibly the outboards are not closed at idle hence adding to the fun.

Found this with Promax adjustable plates which looks pretty sweet:
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/mopp_0801_mopar_six_pack_tuning/ (http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/mopp_0801_mopar_six_pack_tuning/)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: scarpent1 on November 03, 2014 - 11:23:43 pm
Tommy,
Did you ever fix or get a new regulator and set your fuel pressure to 6 psi or less?  The thread has been interesting to read.  I have dealt with similar problems on 4bbl but never worked with a 6 pack.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on November 04, 2014 - 08:09:44 pm
No, I never did anything with the fuel pump. Still reads just a tick under 7psi.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on November 15, 2014 - 02:08:00 pm
Pictures of the area where I disconnected the choke system. Could something here be contributing to my problems?
Idle is very inconsistent, and it still wants to just up and quit after running for about 7-8 minutes. I can be driving it around, and then it will just cough and quit, and not want to start again for at least 5 minutes.
Bowl levels are all right about the bottom of the hole.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4021.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4021.jpg.html)(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4019.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4019.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on November 15, 2014 - 04:13:46 pm
Why the holes in the secondary throttle plates but not the main? and what is the purpose of those holes...just allowing a little more air?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on November 18, 2014 - 04:54:20 pm
The 600 or 1600 idle is one of 2 things , 1600 rpm is running off the boosters , 600 is on the idle circuit so you need more air flow without uncovering the idle transfer slots so you have to drill holes in the throttle plates so it ill idle between the 2.
 It could also be in the mechanical advance , if the springs are too light it can change the timing at idle causing the speed to flare up


It must be the idle circuit. Prior owner had small copper wires down into the openings and I removed them over a year ago.
When I place new wires of similar small gauge (or put my fingers over them) the idle raises a lot.
I think I will remove the main and check the transition slots again but Im pretty sure they were more or less square. Then Ill drill the 3/32 holes and see what it does with and without the copper wire trick (which looks rigged)
edit
After removing the main, the throttle shaft spring is not closing the blades all the way. Is there a replacement shaft spring, or can I just twist it another revolution? But... even when I force the blades closed they have lots of light showing through around the edges when the idle slot shows square. Also, I noticed the shaft spring is enough to shut the blades when the throttle plate is off the carb, but when the base is mounted, and it has to also push on other levers, it isnt enough tension to close the blades by itself. Im sure when mounted on the manifold though the addition of the main throttle return spring helps it to fully close.
Btw, the idle screw had been turned in too far, exposing almost the entire slot, so at least I fixed that.
Im going to put it back on without drilling holes yet and see if my minor tinkering has helped any.

(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4060.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4060.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4061.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4061.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4063.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4063.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: cuda346pk on November 18, 2014 - 10:31:13 pm
I had to file edges of my throttle plates to get them to seal good in each carb. Also be careful tightening down the carbs. They warp easy and then the plates will bind.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: AARuFAST on November 18, 2014 - 10:51:01 pm
My  :2cents:
Tommy

start motor Spray with ether or carb cleaner around the manifold, manifold bolts, carb plates. bolts.
 My manifold bolts holding the bracket coil
were sucking air. If no increase in idle next steps.

This will cause vacuum problems.>
You mentioned in the first posting the brake booster was full of gas.
You have done everything I would have and have done with my AAR 6 pak.

Since the booster was full of gas, did you check the vacum on the brake booster.
Did you check the valve on the booster to see if it is operating with the engine vacuum

1. is the brake pedal hard to press when car is running? Do you need to pump the brakes?
2. disconnect the brake booster hose and plug it.
3. run the motor and see if the idle changes.  Switch the hose back and forth on the booster.
4. if the idle changes and it runs smooth.  the brake booster is damaged from filling with fuel.   If the brake pedal is hard you damaged the booster when it filled with gas. This affects the vacuum over all ..
6. I would need to read more if you have electric fuel pump, can you turn it off and run the motor
until the fuel emptys from the carbs?
Start it to get the fuel bowls up.  Turn electric fuel pump off and run the motor until bowls empty to see if it runs ok.
be sure the accelerator pump is set correct.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Chryco Psycho on November 19, 2014 - 12:02:29 am
Are the throttle plates properly centered , if the screws have been loosened the plates could be off center causing the throttle to not fully close, this may not help anyway as you will limit air past the t plates even more adding to the need to drill holes  .
 Inserting wire in the bleeds limits air flow & causes lower vacuum to draw in more fuel , imagine a straw with a hole in the top [air bleed] , bottom [transfer slot] & a hole in the side where you apply vacuum to draw fuel into the idle circuit from the fuel bowl but this is above the fuel level in the bowl . As you close the hole at the top of the straw the vacuum at the bottom has more effect on pulling fuel into the idle circuit  . Drilling holes allows in more air without exposing the transfer slot & will help with engines with lower vacuum at idle as will restricting the air bleeds at the top . , it is easy to see if the brake booster is a problem , just plug the port to the booster & see if the engine runs better .
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on November 22, 2014 - 02:51:58 pm
Still hunting...the idle, that is.
Video (click on first picture) shows it hunting from 1500 rpm or so to stumble speed and back and forth.
Brake booster is not a problem.
Thanks for all the replies, especially CP. I know you have told me at least twice in this thread to use 61-62 primary jet, but heres my setup:
Jets- 66 primary, 80 secondaries
6.5PV (I think)
31 squirter
Approx. 6.5 psi fuel pressure
290 cam in position 1
MSD timing 16/36 (more or less)
Cam: Crane hydraulic 302
Getting about 10 inches vacuum at 1000 rpm and 20-21 at cruising speed
Vacuum drops to 5-6 inches at anything in the 700-800 rpm range
From the pictures you can see I just drilled out the primary blades with a 3/32 bit and made sure the transition slot is at a reasonable position. It does seem to be running slightly better since then, but consistent problems remain.
Btw, what is that other small horizontal slot (near the transition slot) in the one barrel for?
I have come a long way. It isnt smoking anymore, and Im getting close thanks to many hours of fiddling with every adjustment screw but I will be happy with a STEADY idle at 1000 if I can manage it.
Oh, and if I can figure why after about 10 minutes of running/idling it just quits out of nowhere. It happened once in an intersection and wouldnt restart for about 5 minutes  :pullinghair: but it does it consistently, even just sitting in my driveway.
And still, hard starting. With the choke removed, it takes a while to warm it up, and I dont even think to try and expect it to idle half way normal if it isnt warmed up at least 5 minutes.

In summary, 3 main problems:
- hunts at warmed up idle
- quits after 10 minutes running
- hard starting
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/th_IMG_4080.mp4) (http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4080.mp4)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4075.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4075.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4072.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4072.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4070.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4070.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: AARuFAST on November 22, 2014 - 08:25:58 pm
POWER VALVES:
The number stamped on a power valve, such as 65, indicates the manifold vacuum below which the power valve is operational. In this case, all manifold vacuums below 6.5” Hg, the power valve is operating. Generally a 65 power valve is sufficient for most high performance applications that have a manifold vacuum of 12” Hg or higher. However, some problems can result with radically cammed engines equipped with automatic transmissions. These vehicles often “idle” at 2000 rpm, approx. 6.0” Hg. At this point the main nozzles are starting to feed and richen the mixture (supplied by the power valve) and the engine will probably “load up”. To correct this problem, install a 45 or 35 power valve. If the engine has a manifold vacuum of 12” Hg or less, a good way to determine power valve size is take the manifold vacuum at idle and divide that number by two. The answer is the power valve size. This will provide idling and proper fuel flow under wide open throttle conditions when manifold vacuums seldom rise above 1” Hg.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on November 23, 2014 - 01:38:46 am
I thought with a 6.5pv I would be good with pressure of 8 inches or more at idle.
Would the wrong size cause my problems of hunting, hard starts and quitting?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Chryco Psycho on November 23, 2014 - 08:18:17 am
You say you only have 5-6 " of vacuum around 700-800 rpm so I would have no higher than a 3.5 " power valve in there . also is that in gear if it is automatic if not it will drop more in gear ?
 You really are at the low end with vacuum & need a lot of tweaking to get it to idle well , the power valve would definatly be causing the hunting at idle . You will need smaller bleeds on the idle circuit so the low vacuum will draw in enough fuel & with the 6 pack the bleeds are fixed so you could restrict them with solder or epoxy & drill them out much smaller or restrict them with wire trapped by the squirter .
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on November 23, 2014 - 10:37:25 am
Thanks.
I will go ahead and order a 3.5 power valve.
And I forgot to mention I have put copper wire down the idle bleeds. That definitely helped bring up the speed.  :bigsmile:
And PS, I have a 4 speed

Spent last night troubleshooting an ignition problem. It was cranking fine, but no spark. Charged the battery up a little bit and it worked.
I read the MSD is very sensitive to the volts while cranking. Worries me since thats never happened before  :dunno:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on November 23, 2014 - 01:05:47 pm

Yeah the MSD ignition box wants to see nice voltage from 11-12V but I hear it will work down to 7V. Of course I have never gone there.

Originally when this problem started I thought you said that you had like 12" vacuum at idle and now it's like 8"? If that is the case, two things may have happened - you changed your cam or you have a nice vacuum leak. I'm leaning towards the leak because you say the motor is hunting when trying to idle and the is a sure sign.

What kind of cam are you running on this motor?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on November 23, 2014 - 02:41:47 pm
I must be loosing volts somewhere to the ignition box, because the starter was cranking over strong.
Anyways, I ordered a 3.5 PV, and some 62 jets and new idle screws and metering block gaskets just in case, since Im going back in (for about the 10th time).
But....the car is running MUCH better today. Started right up (almost) and idled and ran fairly well. :burnout: :jumping:

Idling in my driveway in the beautiful 72 degree weather this afternoon:
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/IMG_4081.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/IMG_4081.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on November 27, 2014 - 12:29:15 pm
Happy Thanksgiving!
My Holley stuff from Summit arrived yesterday so this morning put my primary back together with 35 PV, 64 jets and replaced one of the idle screws.
I noticed none of my idle screws were identical. The points on them were different, and even slightly different lengths. Crappy production quality?
I decided to use the two middle screws as they were most similar and had decent points on them. The one on the left had no point. New ones are on the right.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4098.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4098.jpg.html)
Not sure if these screw changes made much difference but after putting things together it seems to be running better, and idling with a small hunt between 850 and 950 rpm or so.
Vacuum is fairly steady about 10 inches at 900 rpm (give or take same as before) but vacuum drops quickly and gets very erratic once rpm drops to 800 or below.
Took some fiddling but my screws are out a little more than before, from about 5/8 turn to about 1-1/8 turns out. Seems to run decent there, but still doesnt want to start right up again after its been running a while. Have to let it sit a good 5 minutes before it will start.
Also checked timing and it seems to be about 14/32. Its a MSD6AL system so Ive never fiddled with it.
I'm getting closer.  :working: :woohoo:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on November 27, 2014 - 02:18:02 pm

Check your voltage from the red wire to your MSD6AL.

Btw, what is your voltage at the coil?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on November 27, 2014 - 02:29:23 pm
Check your voltage from the red wire to your MSD6AL.

Btw, what is your voltage at the coil?
I will check, but...I think my alternator isnt putting out. Im having to charge up the battery and it seems voltage at the alternator at idle is about 11.75. Battery will charge with my tender up to about 13.5 volts, but with a bad alternator it doesnt last long.
How do I check coil voltage?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on November 27, 2014 - 02:53:33 pm

When mine is idling my voltage at the battery shows about 13.15V or thereabouts.

To measure any under hood voltage I make it easy on myself and put the negative probe from my multimeter and wedge it into my negative terminal. Then I can take the positive and check the positive side of the coil. You can then check voltages at your ballast resistor and check output from your alternator as well. Be careful not to short the probe to anything as you will get one heck of a eye opener near the alternator.

Sounds like you will need to swap out your alternator, which I recently had to do - at this time most folks say to swap out the voltage regulator at the same time but I will give you a warning. The guy who swapped out my alternator and voltage regulator at the shop didn't securely ground the regulator and hence I had an overcharging condition. To securely ground the regulator make sure it's making good contact with the firewall and make sure it's nice and snug.

Once you have these voltages let us know.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on November 27, 2014 - 03:11:32 pm
Thanks
What kind of volts are expected at the positive coil terminal at idle?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: onebadfish on November 27, 2014 - 03:53:33 pm
You're almost there Tommy! Been following this thread since day one and I admire your sticktuativeness!!
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on November 27, 2014 - 08:17:17 pm
Thanks.
Its not so much sticktuativeness though.
Ive been dragging on this because I havent had a lot of motivation. I have had lots of time to research and ask questions though!
This thread has been a LOT of help and I hope someone else can learn from this and all the pictures Ive taken.
Looking back its been trial and error (mostly error) and shots in the dark, but knowing what I know now, theres no reason I couldnt have done it all in a few days. Heck, rebuilding the carbs and tuning them can possibly be done in an afternoon if everything goes right. But it never does.  :horse:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on November 28, 2014 - 12:26:39 pm

At the coil you should be seeing around 9V when idling.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on December 05, 2014 - 09:13:49 am
The car is running much better, but not quite perfect yet.
I replaced the alternator, but the VR wont screw tightly to the firewall. I think the posts may be stripped, as the screws wont fully tighten. I filed the firewall area at point of contact, and put a couple star washers in there to help bite, so I guess Ill try another trick (stuff a small copper wire in the screw hole).
If the VR doesnt have a good ground contact wont that only cause an overcharging condition? My problem seems to be undercharging. At idle yesterday it was reading 12.4 volts and holding steady even at higher rpms. Then restarting it it read 12.38 at all engine speeds. Then restarted a little while later and it read 12.34.
The new alternator tested good in the auto store, and when I put my battery on the battery tender it charges up to about 13.4 and holds there.
Any more on this and I'll post questions to an electrical thread.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on December 05, 2014 - 10:47:03 am
Are you reading the voltages at the back of the alternator?  If not, try that.  One probe on the large battery post and other one on the case.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on December 05, 2014 - 02:24:10 pm

Tommy

Hopefully this is not the case but you may need to use larger bolts to hold the VR onto the firewall tightly. Yes if it's loose it will cause an overcharge condition which I experienced lately. Not good, fries electronics and such.

Like Strawdawg said - check the voltages at the back of the alternator and then right at your battery when idling.

Btw, what is your voltage at the coil while idling now?

B
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on December 05, 2014 - 08:37:19 pm
I did the test from the battery posts to the alternator case and the output post and it reads ok.
I will test the coil tomorrow.
As far as the carbs, I think I am done with Phase 1:

It seems to be idling well now  :jumping: :woohoo:

Now, on to the next step, which I think may have to do with the secondaries, only because I havent done much adjusting with them. Basically, its the jetting, idle screws, float level, mechanical links on the left and vacuum action on the right. Not much else I can do. Anyways, I installed 80 jets front and rear as a start hoping they would be close.
Whats happening still is I am getting dieseling, which I thought couldnt happen with a MSD6AL system, but  :dunno:
Then, sometimes, especially trying to restart the engine just moments after shutting it down after running it a few minutes, it will cough and spit backwards a huge puff of brownish smoke back through the air filter. Tonight it spit what looked like a raincloud into my garage.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Strawdawg on December 05, 2014 - 09:53:37 pm
When you say it reads OK, then I take it that you are seeing about 14 volts


Dieseling is not normally an ignition related problem.  It usually has to do with the throttle blades set too far open at idle, or in some cases, a timing problem
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on December 06, 2014 - 02:55:22 pm
Havent tested electrical yet cause I woke with a bug in my head to mount my contour camera under the hood to watch the vacuum secondary operation. I filmed the vacuum side and it wasnt real eye opening. I was just glad I saw the levers move, though it wasnt as much as I thought they would.
Here is a video from the mechanical drivers side which shows more. They seemed to operate basically on or off, with not much gradual about it, and I think basically only under FULL throttle. They definitely did not gradually kick in.
I have not replaced the vacuum pod rubbers, because they seemed in good shape and the basic test I performed they operated well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASamZkRelcg&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASamZkRelcg&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on December 08, 2014 - 03:11:57 am

Hmm seems like you have an off idle stumble to start with and when the primaries and secondaries open you are fairly smooth.

What kind of squirter is on the primary? Seems to get a healthy shot every time you get on the gas. The only other thing I will say about dieseling is that it could be timing. When is the last time you timed the distributor and checked the plugs and wires.

Just throwing it out there.

 :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on December 08, 2014 - 08:24:35 am
Squirter is a 31. Jets are 64 primary and 80s outside. I worked hard to make sure the transition slot shows a small rectangle.
The plugs are new. Ignition MSD with timing around 15/35, but the wires are not new. Maybe I will try a new set.
Are the secondaries supposed to open only under WOT?
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on December 08, 2014 - 12:36:38 pm

Tommy

From what I can hear it sounds like your secondaries are opening just fine. When you draw enough vacuum then the secondary diaphragm will start to open up and is dependent on the type of spring you put in it. If you have the silver springs that is the stock spring. Do not use the black spring in your vacuum setup as this will keep the carb from opening up the secondaries unless you completely stomp on it. The springs are used to try and match the transition from your primaries to your secondaries. It should be smooth, not late or non-existent like the black spring.

Here is the gotcha - you have vacuum secondaries and secondary throttle linkages. So if you stomp it  - yes they will open. But up to a point you will be at the mercy of the vacuum draw to open the secondaries. Think throttle going from 1/4 to 1/2.

Hopefully that helps,
B

p.s. You may have to jet down or change a squirter to get rid of that off idle stumble.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on December 08, 2014 - 05:58:20 pm
Just ordered new diaphragms and spring set for the pods since they are over 10 years old and seem worn looking.
Also ordered a new set of 8.5 MSD plug wires.
Sometimes I forget how old the car is, and the fact its a 10 year old resto. It looks new, but the age sometimes matters just as much as the miles, especially with rubber parts.
BTW I cant tell what color my springs are but I think they are a regular unfinished metal/silver color.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on December 08, 2014 - 06:35:24 pm
So how do you know when you have the right spring? Start with the stiff and when you feel it kick in on WOT you have the right spring?

And question two, I realize every engine is different, but for those that have tuned a bunch of these, what are the typical idle screw settings. My main is about 7/8 turn, and I have the secondaries at about 1/2 turn out (all equal side to side)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Chryco Psycho on December 08, 2014 - 08:26:02 pm
The Idle screws look about right to me , the outboards are generally around 1/2 - 3/4 turn out & center carb around 1 turn out + or -
 The out boards should open smoothly so you should not feel them open , no bog or sag as they open any sag & they are opening too fast & going lean before the fuel flow picks up .
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: HP_Cuda on December 09, 2014 - 04:11:06 pm
"So how do you know when you have the right spring? Start with the stiff and when you feel it kick in on WOT you have the right spring?"

It's basically where you want the secondaries to open up at what RPM. I think you are fine exactly where you are with the silver spring.

If you have the silver/clear spring you have the stock springs in there and it should work fine. If you wanted to go stiffer/lighter here is the chart
to reference:

I know this shows for a chebby but it gives you an idea where it starts to open.

B
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: onebadfish on December 09, 2014 - 09:50:24 pm
This is a guide that has been around for a while....


Remember six pak engines run on the center carb and idle on all 3
The car must idle and run like a normal car before attempting any secondary action or wide open throttle passes.

A Good ignition system is required., MSD, Mallory or FBO mopar box, NO orange boxes or chrome boxes unless you know for sure it is early 80’s vintage. Anything made after 1988 is questionable.

Quality distributor cap & rotor
High quality spark plug wires like Firecore 50s
Spark plugs of the proper heat range.

Vacuum adv distributor
The distributor phasing has been checked and corrected as necessary
THIS IS IMPORTANT
Distributor vacuum port on carb disconnected and plugged at carb

Make sure the timing is 15 - 18 deg btdc [advance] at idle. THIS IS IMPORTANT
Set the timing marks at 15 btdc and align the rotor with the cap-this is one reason the phasing was checked.

Car in neutral-auto or 4 sp, emergency brake set.
A good quality vacuum gage is required,
Connect vacuum gauge to manifold vacuum source.

ATTENTION -195 degree thermostat- ATTENTION
THIS IS IMPORTANT
If you run a lower temp thermostat, raw fuel will collect in the intake
That fuel then burns off in the cruise mode.
Unless you have a wideband air fuel meter you will not see this happening, but you will have problems getting it to idle and see the mixture go leaner in the cruise mode.

The heat crossover should be blocked on big & small blocks
Note: in temps below 40 degree it will take a good while to get the car warmed up. Block heaters will eliminate the long warm ups.

Set the outboards idle adj screws out 1/8 turn ccw THIS IS IMPORTANT
Be careful when seating the idle screws to set them, gently is the word
Install the BLACK springs – Just do it, ignore everything else you have read

Set the center carb idle adjustment screws at 1.5 turns out [ccw] THIS IS IMPORTANT

Check the center carb and be sure to adjust the idle screw until the throttle blades are closed and the transfer slot is exposed no larger than a square. [carb would have to be off the car to see this] You only want about .040" of the transfer slots exposed below the throttle plates. If the idle screw is adjusted too high, you will be into the transition circuit, exposing too much of the vertical rectangular slot. Many times the idle screw is adjusted incorrectly to compensate for other issues. This puts the carb into the transition circuit and at that point you have no mixture control on the center carb.
If you have new carbs(untouched) they will have 62 jets in the center carb & a 6.5hg power valve The outboards will have the lead plugs covering the idle adj screws.

Starting point for center carb jetting stock 340 use 62’s, highly modified or stroker use 64’s,
Leave the outboards alone for now unless you have the jetable metering plates, if so read their instructions and follow them
You must know what power valve is in the center carb. Typically a 6.5

Fuel level adjustment THIS IS IMPORTANT, this is best done idling at 1000-1200 rpm
The slotted screw on top of the needle n seat is just a lock screw,
To adj the float level loosen the lock screw to rotate the seat nut,
Turning the adjuster nut counter clockwise will raise fuel level in the bowl, clockwise will lower it
Make only small 1/2 turns.
You must let the car run a 3 or more minutes so the fuel levels off before rechecking level
Center carb the fuel level is at the bottom of the sight plug hole
Secondaries it is just starting to come over the bottom of the sight plug hole
This is critical so get it right.

Set idle to 950 rpm and allow engine to reach operating temp.

Reminder 195 degree thermostat required or fuel will puddle in the intake. .

If the car won’t idle: Is engine vacuum reading at least 2 hg higher than the power valve rating? If ok proceed, if not correct power valve issue and proceed.
Note some engines only pull 5 hg of vacuum so use a 2.5 power valve.

Now set the initial timing to where it wants to be. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 12-14 degrees BTDC.
Cams with 106-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 16-22 BTDC
Cams with 108-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 12-18 BTDC
Cams with 110-114 degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 8-14 BTDC

Re-Set the idle rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws on the ctr carb. Using a good vacuum gage adj center carb mixture to highest reading of vacuum. If you do not have control over the idle mixture you have issues that need to be taken care of before proceeding.

Typically if you have the center carb idle mixture screws between 1 to 2 turns ccw
you do not have to adjust the outboard idle mixture any further. Starting with the front carb, adj the mixture screws one at a time 1/16th turn ccw, after turning each screw wait and see what the engine vacuum and rpm do. Obviously if you have a wideband a-f gauge you will see what is happening.

Beware of issues such as poor intake sealing, carb gaskets backwards, the wrong pcv valve, a vacuum leak from the brake booster or other places, wrong pwr valve etc.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 900

Drive car like a normal person, no wide open throttle. Is the car rich? Jet down 2 steps until you find the min jet size. You will know when you are lean as you will have no power.

Most times you are over jetted.... Do not over jet!
Over jetted carbs will have poor idle control.

Now reset the initial timing again. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 15 degrees BTDC.

Re-Set the rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws. Using a good vacuum gage adj each mixture screw to highest reading of vacuum. If you have a wideband afr meter set to 14.7

Recheck idle rpm and set to 850

How do you know when you are "there”?
The car will idle at 700-900 rpm in neutral and the response is crisp.
There is no smell of raw gas in the exhaust.
The bottom of the intake is not soaked with fuel. Open a carb and look in
The spark plugs are clean.
The engine when cold starts easily, runs and drives smoothly from the get go.
The engine when hot restarts immediately without touching the throttle.
When the engine is rev’d and the throttle released it immediately returns to idle.

OK if you made it this far it’s time for the Secondaries

The reason you put the black spring is to delay the opening of the secondaries until the engine is ready for it. The engine will run fine on just the center carb till at least 3000 rpm. The air fuel mixture spikes lean when the secondaries open, but at higher rpms this is transparent and has no affect on performance. The opening of the secondaries should be seamless, but very apparent and usually scary to the uninitiated.

The long vacuum hoses for the outboard carbs need to be exactly the same length.

Pulling a vacuum on the hose should make the vacuum pod open the throttle blade and hold a vacuum

The best way to dial in the secondary air fuel ratio is with a wide band air fuel meter.
A fine tuned seatofthepantsometer and spark plug reading will work for the more experienced

If you made it this far and the car is bogging when the six pak opens you need to go back and recheck starting at the top.

Notes:

If the initial timing exceeds 12 degrees BTDC with a MP distributor typically the advance curve will need to be modified so the total timing is not more than 34 degrees BTDC.

Automatic cars with too tight of a converter will cause significant idle rpm drops when in drive, the car will not run at it’s full potential so be sure to use the correct converter for the application.

Some cars like staggered jetting.
 
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on December 09, 2014 - 10:44:48 pm
Thanks guys.
I have seen those before.
When the new springs and diaphragms come in a few days Im going to compare the new springs to what I have because I see what looks like maybe some yellow at the top of one of the springs, and then Ill just test each one, maybe starting with the black, then brown, then plain, etc and use the first one that feels smooth.
One thing at a time, but I do think it is idling well now.
 
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on December 13, 2014 - 11:27:56 pm
Still idling well, and now running much more smoothly under hard throttle without any "kick in". I replaced the lighter yellow springs and old diaphragms, and went straight to the silver springs. I think its still a little rich...I can smell it...but no more smoke and it seems every time I fiddle Im getting closer.
I feel like the tortoise.
I noticed a little off idle hesitation today maybe for the first time, and did get dieseling one time, plus the car does not return immediately to idle when blipping the throttle, but it never has. It tends to slowly come back down.
New and old diaphragms:
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/trgreen/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4194.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/trgreen/media/Plymouth/Cuda%20six%20pack/IMG_4194.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: moper on December 19, 2014 - 10:32:08 pm
So how do you know when you have the right spring? Start with the stiff and when you feel it kick in on WOT you have the right spring?

And question two, I realize every engine is different, but for those that have tuned a bunch of these, what are the typical idle screw settings. My main is about 7/8 turn, and I have the secondaries at about 1/2 turn out (all equal side to side)

Hi Tommy - I haven't visited this site in a long time... First time seeing the thread and the 'ol girl. She still looks great! Th esprings, if my memory serves me right, is that it has two "short" yellow springs in the secondaries. You aill not see the secondaries open without a load on the engine, and the center going past about 1/2 throttle. You will want to go stiffer - not lighter. A lot of guys like the purple springs... The spring search requires you to test drive, swap, test drive, swap... You start heavy, and go lighter until you get a stumble, then go back one stiffer.
The run-on may be caused by carbon - a lot of fuel dumped and not burned well will carbon things up. Once it's right again try runnign some Sea Foam or some water sprayed down the carb when it's hot and running, or a chemical decarbonizer.
The idle screw setting is the best idle vacuum with the screws out an even amount. It could be 1, 1 1/2, or 2 turns... Whatever it likes. Use a vacuum gage to set them. Your ear will deceive you. Also bear in mind the air bleeds may not be right for the engine either, which means the idle will only get "so good" unless you make changes there.
I miss that car - but glad to see you still have it and it's working for you.
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on December 20, 2014 - 09:06:53 pm
Nice to hear from you moper.
 I think you were the last to tune these carbs. I removed the copper wires you had in the bleeds, but I reinstalled them recently.
I am now running the silver springs. They seem to work best, and you have a good memory...they were yellow springs.
I doubt you have read this entire thread, but I actually have replaced all three carbs with used running units, swapping for all the best parts of the bunch. It had the 340 outboards before but now has the big block outboards, but there doesnt appear to be much difference in the two. Jets are much smaller but it does seem to still run rich. I have sprayed water a couple times and keep fiddling. Maybe I will try the seafoam soon. The more time I spend the better its running. Took it on a nice drive today and it ran very well, and idled great at about 800-900 rpm, but it dieseled a couple times after turning it off, and then seeing the smoke belching out the shaker.
It's running well enough, but the crisp immediate return to idle is something its never had, and dont know if I'll ever get there.
But it still has a good home, and I'm trying to do my part  :cheers:
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: moper on December 23, 2014 - 02:44:19 pm
But it still has a good home, and I'm trying to do my part  :cheers:

I'll start an investment acount for the day you decide your knee hurts too much to keep driving it :D....lol
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: tommyg29 on December 23, 2014 - 08:37:39 pm
Between playing football at the park with my kids home from college, and then doing a brake job last night (in the driveway, not a lift) on my sons Ram with 26 inch wheels that weigh about 80 pounds each, my knees are already crying.  :eek4:
Merry Christmas everyone!
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: whitewatersky on June 27, 2017 - 03:35:57 am
Hey y'all.
My T/A has never run well since rebuild.
Should this Apply same for a 340?
Thanks
Title: Re: Six Pack issues and rebuilding
Post by: Mopar Mitch on June 28, 2017 - 02:18:52 pm
Excellent tuning tips in this thread!   I also suggest the ProMax adjustable base plates, especially for the rear (can be used for the front, as well)... should've been that way from the factory!   I eventually got my six-pack setup to run great.. smooth idling, easy starting, and very responsive!   IMO, six-packs are more intimidating to tune, etc, than what they really are... just spend some time and it'll run great!    Use a vacuum gauge during the tuning... that helped tremendously.
 :bigsmile: