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Chryco's Tech Shop => The Archives => Topic started by: Chryco Psycho on April 27, 2006 - 12:04:17 AM

Title: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: Chryco Psycho on April 27, 2006 - 12:04:17 AM
with all the interest in 4 spd conversions now that most of our cars are toys not daily drivers it may be helpful to go over some of the details of ding a swap
the costs can vary widely from mild to wild
 most depends on the availablilty of parts
 for example a 4 spd alone can run from $100 in the wreckers to $2500 US for a completew new unit
& if you want to look at 5 or 6 spds the cost is even higher
 this is the basic parts list needed to convert a car   
4 spd conversion parts
 transmission - Available new from Passon in all styles  & rebuilt from Brewers
Pedals, these vary with different body styles [available from Brewers ]
firewall support bracket
pushrod [pedal to Z bar ] available from Brewers
Z bar [different widths for big & small block  & different body style [brewers ]
Frame pivot bracket -B & E body cars, A bodys use a re-inforcing plate [Brewers & Tilleman]
pivot balls- [ Mopar Brewers & Passon]
adjuster link [Zbar to fork ][ Mopar & Brewers , wreckers ]
release fork [Mopar Brewers & Passon]
belhousing or blastshield [Ebay Lakewood, Passon, McLeod ,Brewers & Keisler ]
release brg [Mopar for the larger Hemi /18 spline brg or Local parts store for 23 spline ]
clutch assly [ Mopar , McLeod, Hays , Ram ]
Flywheel [requires differnt crank bolts than flex plate ] [McLeod , Mopar , 440 source 440 source is by far the cheapest with a steel SFI flywheel at $150 us  ] there are a # of different weights , bolt patterns & balance offsets for different applications
flywheel bolts [Arp or Mopar  7/16" x 1"]
pilot bushing or brg [Local parts store for the bsuhing Pioner part #PB286, Mopar for the roller brg dakota application ]
differnt crossmember , on pre 69 B bodies [ Tilleman /Wreckers]
floor hump [Cross Canada Sheet metal ,Fenders, wreckers  ]
 Transmission slip yolk
shifter mechanism & rods [Passon, Brewers, Hurst ]
shift handle ,[ Mopar , Hurst ]
clips to hlod pushrod & adjuster to Z bar [ Mopar , wreckers ]
Bushings for the Z bar [Mopar, wreckers]
Shift boot & ring [Year One  ,Classic Perf,  PG on Ebay]
 There are a number of different trannys all 833s though
 the 833 is basically the case design ,
there are A/ F body  trannys with the single shift mount pad & the longer B/E/truck 833 trannys usually with 2 shift mount pads [before 70 they had only one right above the speedo gear
there are at least 5 different gear sets available internally most have 2.45 first gear , there is a 4 spd with 3.09 first gear used in 75 & the OD version with the 3.09 first as well
 all have 1-1 4 th ratio Except the Od version , the F body od has .73 4th & the truck has .71 4th
 there are 2 case sizes 1 uses the 307 brg [small] & either the 4.32 or 4.80 front brg retainer the other uses the 308 [large ] front brg & 4.80 or 5.20 dia brg retainer
there are a number of internal differences in the tranny itself to numerous to mention here but really it has no affect on the swap
things to watch for - the belhousing - there are 7 different bels , small block & big block are different
 small block has 3 differnt brg reatainer sizes 4.32 , 4.80 & 5.20[od]these should match the trans being used  , the OD brg retainer can be cut down to 4.80 to fit the smaller bel , but not down to 4.32 to fit the smallest bel , the 4.32 bel could be machined out to 4.80 also the 5.20 " brg retainer can be mounted on a 4.80 trans but not a 4.32 , also a ring cab be machined to fit over the brg retainer to increase the diameter of the 4.32 trans to 4.80 or 5.20 to use the larger bel   
 Big block only has only 2 brg retainer sizes , 4.32 & 4.80 as they never used the OD behind a big block but by maching down the brg retainer to 4.8 the OD will bolt up  But to add to the confusion there are 2 different flywheels used behind the big blocks , 143 tooth & 130 tooth & each used a different bel , the blastsheild will accomadate either though . The same spacer ring will work to adapt 4.32 trans to 4.80 belhousings
 Flywheels - as mentioned above there are 2 sizes , 130 & 143 tooth  + all the different balacing weights for different engines, 340 cast crank , 360 , 400 ,440 cast crank & 440+ 6 are all externally balanced & need special flywheels 273,318,340 steel crank 383 413, 426w,426 Hemi & 440 steel crank  all use neutral balance flywheels but Hemi & Max Wedge use 8 bolt flywheels
 clutches - the 143 tooth flywheel used 11& 12" clutches , the 130 uses 10.5 or 10.95 [often referred to as 11" which is very confusing ] I use Borg & Beck or Borg & Beck /Long style clutches & personally use mostly McLeod , I do not use or recommend any diaphragm style clutch
 Pilot bushing - basically it is the same part used from the late 40s or earlier & has a 4 digit part # from Mopar & usually costs about $1,  If the hole has not been drilled in the rear of the crank it can be solved 2 ways , I still prefer to drill the hole in the crank even if it is not centered but you can also trim 1/2 " off the front of the input shaft on the ttrans & use the Mopar roller brg used in Dakota trucks , it presses into the torque converter hub in the crank 
the frame bracket or plate for the Z bar welds into place either on the frame rail or in the wheel well on A bodys
 the Z bar is unique to each application , with the wider big blocks the Z bar is shorter then a small block bar & the arms are at different angles depending on the application , I have often had to modify a bar to get the best results
 The Z bar has pivot balls & nylon bushings inside these can be bought as a kit from Mopar , they also have grease seals so the grease inside the Z bar stays clean , 1 ball threads into the belhousing , the other slots into the frame bracket 
 The adjuster link is avaialble through Mopar but is not cheap , try to get one at a wreckers , they do vary in length as well depeding on th eapplication however generally too llong is not a problem
the release fork has to match the belhousing , there are 2 different lengths -12" for A body P4529451 & 10.75 for B & E P4529452 A engine & P4529453 B engine, & there are 2 different pivot styles , the flat plate pivot early style & the ball pivot generally only used on OD applications , I have had to modifiy these in the past as well   
 the clutch release brg - there are only 2 types the 23 spline 1" id for around $35 & the 1 3/16 ID brg used on the 18 Spline Hemi trannys , this is only available from Mopar for over $100 P4529064
 The Trans slip yolk May need to be swapped , the 833 B,E & truck applications use the same yolk as the 727 , some F body OD & possibly some A body trannys use the 904 slip yolk , most use the bigger 7272 as well though
 the pedal pushrod is unique for each body  style & changes in lenght & sometimes 1 end is offset , but they can be cut & modified to work
there are also nylon washers & special U shaped clips to keep both the adjuster & pushrod on the Z bar & pedal, I have found these at Mopar , do not take for granted that the pushrod will stay on the pedal or Z bar
the pedals will bolt in , you need to remove the factory Wide brake pedal & slide in the new brake & clutch pedals , B & E bodys have a special bracket with studs that go through the firewall into the clutch support on the left side of the pedal , again the pedals need to be correct for the application , B& E will swap in most applications A is unique
in pre 70 B bodys the 4 spd trans had the mount closer to the front of the tranny & will require a different crossmember when swappiong from a auto to an early B trans , if the later B trans or OD is used the auto trans will work fine
The SHfiter mechanism itself is still available for B bodys from Hurst , but it is not the correct one for the long pistol grip , either A, Bor E bodys can use the Hurst super Comp + shifter , I did see a vendor in Vegas that had correct shifter mechanisms , I think he went by Mr 4 Spd & he had the pistol grips too + with real wood grips , I can`t seem tyo find his # right now though 
 you will need a set of correct shift rods & levers these are different for every application B body bench, console & B&E rear console & A body are all different lengths & bends & by using shorter levers on the side of the trans the shifter throw can be reduced sometimes dramatically   
the shifter ,boot & ring , what can I say get what you like , the handle is different in all appplications , there are basically 4 - Body forward position non console , B body forward position with console , B body forward position bench seat , this application works great in A bodys  as well if you want a pistol grip !! & the B & E body rear position short pistol , the boot will vary if you use a round stick over the retangular pistol grip
 let me know if I missed something , I will try to add more info part #s etc
 
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: chevyconvert on May 17, 2006 - 11:19:50 PM
cp my car had just been converted when I bought it in Nov..
It seems to shift ok, but the clutch pedal seems to vibrate even when it's released like it's still partially engaged or doing something?
Maybe that's normal?

I worry about this crank drilling/Dakota bearing part of the job not being done/in there...what would be the results?
Would it work at all?
 I've driven it about 250 miles now..no abuse on the clutch though(yet).

What would be the best way to have it all verified that it was done right?
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: Chryco Psycho on May 18, 2006 - 01:21:54 AM
not normal for sure , thereis a small rubber pad that should be between the pedal & pivot braket to stop it making noise but it should still sit there & not vibrate, the pressure plate could be wraped or out of balance , the pilot brg could be off center or missing , the flywhhel could be unbalanced or balanced for a different engine
 What else rattles or shakes , the shifter , driveshaft , etc?
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: chevyconvert on May 18, 2006 - 08:16:28 PM
the shifter
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: sleepychallenger on July 27, 2008 - 01:16:49 PM
I am definately going to have to continue to reference this page, however, it needs cleaned up to follow it.
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: CHUCKS71 on July 27, 2008 - 01:19:31 PM
Great summary!  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: The Cuda Guy on July 28, 2008 - 06:20:02 PM
WOW!  Great info!!!   :2thumbs:

Don
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: hemiken on July 28, 2008 - 06:31:05 PM
 :iagree: Can we have this put somewhere as a sticky please.
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: Chryco Psycho on July 29, 2008 - 01:02:39 AM
Umm isn`t that the whole point of the Archive section to keep important / useful stuff handy ???
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: hemiken on July 29, 2008 - 05:01:29 AM
Umm isn`t that the whole point of the Archive section to keep important / useful stuff handy ???
:smilielol: Sorry CP.......... i should of looked before i leaped :faint: :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: chevyconvert on July 31, 2008 - 01:17:53 AM
deja vu...still unsolved here........cp if you're ever in the SF bay area I'd gladly pay for your time to help pinpoint this problem (and a few others) on mine :bigsmile:
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: Chryco Psycho on July 31, 2008 - 02:10:06 AM
never been to SF , maybe we could work something out in a colder month
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: Moparal on October 18, 2009 - 07:34:55 AM
never been to SF , maybe we could work something out in a colder month


I'd say this is considered a colder month now. Is a trip in order?  Or was it fixed?
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: 72rtchallenger on October 18, 2009 - 12:09:47 PM
Flywheels - as mentioned above there are 2 sizes , 130 & 143 tooth  + all the different balacing weights for different engines, 340 cast crank , 360 , 400 ,440 cast crank & 440+ 6 are all externally balanced & need special flywheels 273,318,340 steel crank 383 413, 426w,426 Hemi & 440 steel crank  all use neutral balance flywheels

Hey C.P. What problems would occur if you used an external balanced flywheel on a steel crank ? I converted mine to a 4 spd and everything is smooth except at when I get at say about 60mph it seems I feel a very small amount of vibration around the console area and shifter area,,its not that bad (it may just be the console loose,need to check,thats how light the vibration seems :dunno:) but I was just curious if I put in the wrong flywheel,,was told that by the seller in was neutral balanced but I had no way to compare and had never seen one before,as all my other mopars were autos.may be a stupid question, I dont  know,,
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: 72bluNblu on October 18, 2009 - 12:53:20 PM
Hey C.P. What problems would occur if you used an external balanced flywheel on a steel crank ? I converted mine to a 4 spd and everything is smooth except at when I get at say about 60mph it seems I feel a very small amount of vibration around the console area and shifter area,,its not that bad (it may just be the console loose,need to check,thats how light the vibration seems :dunno:) but I was just curious if I put in the wrong flywheel,,was told that by the seller in was neutral balanced but I had no way to compare and had never seen one before,as all my other mopars were autos.may be a stupid question, I dont  know,,

A small amount of vibration in the console at 60 mph is probably not a drivetrain balance issue. A drivetrain balance issue would be rpm, not necessarily speed related, and would not likely be felt just in the console, you'd feel the engine vibrating the whole car down through the engine mounts and it would transmit down the driveshaft as well.

I would look at tire balance/inflation first if that's the only symptom you have, especially if it goes away as you go faster than 60 mph. And my console rattles and vibrates at most speeds, just FYI. As do my windows, my door panels, etc, etc. It is after all an old musclecar!  ;D
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: 72hemi on October 18, 2009 - 01:27:31 PM
What are the bolt sizes for the bellhousing both to mount the bellhousing to the block and to bolt the transmission to the bellhousing? Also the pressure plate attachment bolts, what size are they?
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: 72rtchallenger on October 18, 2009 - 02:15:12 PM
What are the bolt sizes for the bellhousing both to mount the bellhousing to the block and to bolt the transmission to the bellhousing? Also the pressure plate attachment bolts, what size are they?

unsure of exact sizes,,bought everything out of another ebody ,,replaced flywheel due to heat cracks,,every bolt came with the setup,,but cant remember the sizes
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: Topcat on October 18, 2009 - 02:38:50 PM
I would like the procudure doing a thread on how to measure bellhousing run out using a dial indicator.

My questions are:
If the bellhousing input hole looks un scarred, is it still important to check this?
How is it corrected? Or do you replace bellhousing?
What would I be looking for?
How much tolorance allowed?
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: Changin Gears on October 18, 2009 - 04:20:18 PM
The procedure is in the service manual.  Every factory bellhousing I have checked, except for 1, has been within spec.  The blow-proofs are always out.
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: Chryco Psycho on October 19, 2009 - 02:40:46 AM
the bolts are 3/8" x 1 1/4 long for the top of the bell , 7/16 x 2.5" long for the bottom corners into the block  &
7/16 x 1 1/4long  to hold the tranny on
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: chevyconvert on October 31, 2009 - 08:16:42 PM

I'd say this is considered a colder month now. Is a trip in order?  Or was it fixed?

nah...still vibrating....BURRRRRR
 :bigsmile:
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: brads70 on November 01, 2009 - 06:46:52 PM
LOL Give him another month! It will be colder and he might have his own car together by then!
Title: Re: Updated 4 spd info
Post by: Chryco Psycho on November 02, 2009 - 11:33:08 AM
road trip sounds like a good idea , I am vibrating or is that shivering  :crazy: