Author Topic: EFI for the 340  (Read 816 times)

Offline challengermaniac

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EFI for the 340
« on: December 14, 2017 - 01:06:42 am »
Hey guys,

The carb on my 340 needs attention which causes me to think this is an opportunity to convert to EFI.

Does this sound like a good idea?

Can I get a complete Parts list and recommended supplier(s) offering very good products, service and prices? 

Thanks
Charlie
70 Challenger 340/4 Purple
70 Challenger T/A Red
Edmonds, WA




Offline 1 Wild R/T

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Re: EFI for the 340
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2017 - 01:59:49 am »
You won't regret it...

I use a FiTech system, the Go EFI 4 600 HP System, I didn't use and don't recommend the Command Center, 90% of complaints about this system are directly related to it....  I use a Tanks Inc tank, pump & fuel level sender...  I used assorted fittings & a fuel filter in the rear of the car...
JS27N0B 70 Challenger R/T Convertible  FJ5 Sublime, Show Poodle w/90,000 miles since resto
WS27L8G 68 Coronet R/T Convertible  PP1 Bright Red, Project
RM21H9E 69 Road Runner Coupe R4 Performance Red, Sold...
5H21C  65 Falcon 2 dr Wagon... Dog Hauler...

Offline cudabob496

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Re: EFI for the 340
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2017 - 03:49:22 am »
it's tempting, but has also been rewarding to rebuild
my 850, and get it dialed in almost perfectly. (AFR meter helps a lot).
Total rebuild parts were about $250.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

Online 70chall440

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Re: EFI for the 340
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2017 - 02:43:56 pm »
You won't regret it...

I use a FiTech system, the Go EFI 4 600 HP System, I didn't use and don't recommend the Command Center, 90% of complaints about this system are directly related to it....  I use a Tanks Inc tank, pump & fuel level sender...  I used assorted fittings & a fuel filter in the rear of the car...

Completely agree here; I just installed a Fitech Go EFI 400 system on my 52 Dodge pickup which has a 56 Desoto 330 Hemi in it. I too used a Tanks Inc. tanks and fuel pump. One key point here is that you need to match the fuel pump to the EFI system requirements, if you don't you will likely have issues. Not hard to do, just read what the EFI system requires for inlet fuel pressure and find a pump that matches it (Tanks Inc has whatever you want). I also used a Tanks Inc tank and pump in my 70 Challenger with a EFI 6 pack system. Good products overall and fit well. Some things to consider;

1. Which EFI system to use - there are many on the market all offering all manner of attributes. The core of this is how much control you want over the system. there are a variety of "self learning" systems out there to include Fitech, FAST and the new Holley Sniper system (essentially the same thing as the Fitech but allows you to use the Holley V4 software to manipulate it if you want). Then there are the more versatile systems such as the Holley HP system (there are numerous others) that require you to use a laptop to input a tune and then refine the tune to meet your needs. I have a Holley HP system, a Fitech (self learn) system and a FAST self learn system. I haven't gotten the car with the FAST system up and running yet so I cannot comment on that, but between the other two, the Fitech was WAY easier; essentially bolt on and go. \

2. Fuel system design - this is a place that many don't fully embrace and are surprised once they get into it. On the one hand, you can use a stock tank which you will probably have to modify in order to accept a return line, then use an external pump and filters to deliver the fuel to the EFI system (Throttle body or fuel rails). Or you can use a new "EFI ready" tank with an internal pump, or you can use something like the Fitech command center (basically a canister that takes fuel from your stock system and then turns it into a high pressure system your EFI system requires). Out all all of these, I believe it is pretty universally agreed that the EFI tank and internal pump is the best. Visit some of the EFI manufacturers and do some research. Just understand that there is no "free lunch" and while it may seem cheaper/easier to just use an external pump and existing tank/lines, you may be disappointed in flow/performance as well as shorter pump life and pump noise. 2 more things; you HAVE to use filters (the type and quantity depend on your fuel system design) and you HAVE to use a return line to somewhere (either the tank or to the command system) despite what some manufacturers advertise. I helped with a MSD Atomic system that advertised "no return line needed" only to see on the first page of the instructions "return line highly recommended"; we ended up installing a return line to get it to work right.

3. O2 sensor - you will have to install an O2 sensor into your exhaust system. There are a number of ways to do this ranging from clamp on systems to weld in systems. Fitech comes with a plate that allows you to do either.

4. Wiring - The wiring will depend on what system you select. The Fitech and the Holley sniper system require about 4 wires to be hooked up whereas the Holley HP system (or any direct port injection system) requires the installation of a complete harness (not hard but much more designing and installing).

5. Electrical requirements - Every EFI system demands clean power to operate correctly; this means being wired directly to the battery and having access to "switched" and "cranking" power. This has caused a lot of confusion and problems but isn't that difficult.

In short; installing an EFI system does require a bit of work, however as stated you will not regret it (assuming you install the right system correctly). You car will start, idle and run FAR better than it ever has. It will be more drivable and more importantly more fun to drive. I grew up on carbs like many here, I was tuning 6 pack systems when I was 18 and rebuilding Holleys and Thermoquads frequently. I have now replaced every carb I have with an EFI system; this includes 6 6 pack systems and 1 brand new Holley 600. I will never buy another carb if I can help it. EFI can be a little daunting especially if you go to a tunable system, however it isn't magic or impossible. Kids are doing this daily on imports without even thinking about it.

Hope this helps
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6, 73 Cuda (under const)
05 Durango, 99 Dakota, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR, 61 Jeep FC170
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline challengermaniac

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Re: EFI for the 340
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2017 - 10:18:46 pm »
Wow, this is exactly the information I needed! 

Thank you very much.
Charlie
70 Challenger 340/4 Purple
70 Challenger T/A Red
Edmonds, WA

Online 70chall440

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Re: EFI for the 340
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2017 - 12:27:31 am »
Glad to be of help. I am relatively new to EFI myself but have been on a steep learning curve for a while. I got a lot of help from other members of this forum as well as my own research. Many people will say to read this book or that book, look at certain websites, etc but when you don't know what you are reading it is very frustrating. Bottom line is that it really isn't as complicated as it seems, its just new. Think of it like learning a language, it is difficult in the beginning because you can't get your head around it but over time it begins to take hold and eventually you realize you can speak it and understand it. Same deal here but with the advantage that once you begin to get even a small understanding you can begin to ask questions that will build upon your knowledge. There are some "experts" out there and while they certainly know what they are talking about, they tend to assume you do and thus answer questions at a far higher level than what you understand.

First determine what you expect and need out of the system; this will drive to specific attributes. Then determine what system you can afford and like th best. Remember that an EFI system is computer controlled and therefore will do what you tell it, the trick is knowing what to tell it. Its easy to get mission creep as you read about various systems; what I mean is that manufacturers are very good at advertising their products in a way that grab your attention.  If you do not need or want to tune the system with a laptop, then don't spend you money on a system that requires this. However if you intend to build big HP, then you probably need to be able to tune it.

I will leave you with this; an EFI system can be like other things in that it has limitations. If you expect to rebuild at some point and go big on the HP side, you need a system that is up gradable. Most throttle body systems are not whereas direct port injection systems are generally; however if you were to get an intake today for a relatively stock motor that had injector bungs installed and fuel rails, chances are you would be replacing the intake when you went to a bigger engine, but you could probably still use the harness and ECU assuming you bought one initially that could handle the changes. Oh, one other thing; many EFI systems do not like big lumpy cams. There are some systems that are better at managing them then others so do some homework or better yet call the manufacturers and ask.
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6, 73 Cuda (under const)
05 Durango, 99 Dakota, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR, 61 Jeep FC170
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline GoodysGotaCuda

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Re: EFI for the 340
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2017 - 08:48:08 am »
As mentioned, "EFI" is a fairly open term these days.

Most kits are technically Throttle-body Injection [TBI], which is fairly old technology [80's] but it is self-learning and is still a significant advantage over a carb.

I would not consider a system that did not include spark control. To get the most of it, I would want the system to control the timing exactly as I wanted it. It can be very helpful in stabilizing idle and providing the best hot/cold start characteristics.

That being said, I have quite an overcomplicated system for most users on my car. It's a fully sequential spark/fuel control and the options are fairly limitless. It can be a curse or a blessing, depending on your mechanical and electrical aptitude. I find it a fun challenge to get it to run like a modern car that is fuel efficient, reliable and offering advanced technology. For instance, I have a front and rear wheel speed reference that manages traction via spark retardation....it's pretty cool, but overly complicated for most.

The problem with overly tunable EFI systems is they do exactly what you tell them to do. Right or wrong. If you are new to EFI, sensors, temperature corrections, open/closed loop operation, etc...stick with something that has limited user inputs.
Build Page: Goody's 'Cuda Build Page
1976 Dodge Warlock
1972 Barracuda - 5.7 Hemi + T56 Magnum

Wheel & Tire Specs:Link

Offline cudabob496

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Re: EFI for the 340
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2017 - 11:43:09 pm »
Glad to be of help. I am relatively new to EFI myself but have been on a steep learning curve for a while. I got a lot of help from other members of this forum as well as my own research. Many people will say to read this book or that book, look at certain websites, etc but when you don't know what you are reading it is very frustrating. Bottom line is that it really isn't as complicated as it seems, its just new. Think of it like learning a language, it is difficult in the beginning because you can't get your head around it but over time it begins to take hold and eventually you realize you can speak it and understand it. Same deal here but with the advantage that once you begin to get even a small understanding you can begin to ask questions that will build upon your knowledge. There are some "experts" out there and while they certainly know what they are talking about, they tend to assume you do and thus answer questions at a far higher level than what you understand.

First determine what you expect and need out of the system; this will drive to specific attributes. Then determine what system you can afford and like th best. Remember that an EFI system is computer controlled and therefore will do what you tell it, the trick is knowing what to tell it. Its easy to get mission creep as you read about various systems; what I mean is that manufacturers are very good at advertising their products in a way that grab your attention.  If you do not need or want to tune the system with a laptop, then don't spend you money on a system that requires this. However if you intend to build big HP, then you probably need to be able to tune it.

I will leave you with this; an EFI system can be like other things in that it has limitations. If you expect to rebuild at some point and go big on the HP side, you need a system that is up gradable. Most throttle body systems are not whereas direct port injection systems are generally; however if you were to get an intake today for a relatively stock motor that had injector bungs installed and fuel rails, chances are you would be replacing the intake when you went to a bigger engine, but you could probably still use the harness and ECU assuming you bought one initially that could handle the changes. Oh, one other thing; many EFI systems do not like big lumpy cams. There are some systems that are better at managing them then others so do some homework or better yet call the manufacturers and ask.

Would the FI Tech system work with my solid roller, 254/258 @ .050, .600/.625 lift???
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

Offline 1 Wild R/T

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Re: EFI for the 340
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2017 - 01:37:41 am »
Would the FI Tech system work with my solid roller, 254/258 @ .050, .600/.625 lift???

What kind of vacuum does it pull at idle?  10 in/hg no problem... 6 in/hg works pretty good... 3-4 in/hg it might not idle very well...
JS27N0B 70 Challenger R/T Convertible  FJ5 Sublime, Show Poodle w/90,000 miles since resto
WS27L8G 68 Coronet R/T Convertible  PP1 Bright Red, Project
RM21H9E 69 Road Runner Coupe R4 Performance Red, Sold...
5H21C  65 Falcon 2 dr Wagon... Dog Hauler...

Offline Aussie Challenger

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Re: EFI for the 340
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2017 - 05:37:17 pm »
There is some very good, learned and wise thoughts and suggestions in this thread and I would recommend that it be made a sticky so others can find it easily as more go down this path.   :2thumbs:
Dave

Online 70chall440

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Re: EFI for the 340
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2017 - 07:35:02 pm »
Ive read some about low vacuum engines and EFI but do not have this issue so I cannot really comment. I do know the Holley system is supposed to be good with this issue. Id recommend calling the manufacturers
Current Mopar
70 Challenger RT 440-6, 73 Cuda (under const)
05 Durango, 99 Dakota, 01 Ram 4x4, 14 2500 4X4, 10 PCP Challenger RT, 01 Viper GTS ACR, 52 B3B w/330 Desoto Hemi, 70 Hemi RR, 61 Jeep FC170
Past Mopars
9 x Challengers. AAR Cuda, 4 RR, 2 GTX, 4 Chargers, etc... (too many to list)

Offline cudabob496

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Re: EFI for the 340
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2017 - 03:13:22 pm »
What kind of vacuum does it pull at idle?  10 in/hg no problem... 6 in/hg works pretty good... 3-4 in/hg it might not idle very well...

in gear, 10 to 11, so guess I'll be ok.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"